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Comment by argd678 | Hacker News Reader

How come you don’t see homeless in Europe to the same degree like in the US?

Can’t speak for other countries, but in Germany there is a social security safety net that will pay rent up to a certain apartment size and just barely cover living expenses.

It doesn’t eliminate homelessness entirely, a lack of affordable housing in cities is a problem here just like anywhere else, but it makes it much less likely.

I know the narrative from some, especially in the US is a “why would anyone work when the state will pay for you”, but the standard of living you get in welfare is just basic survival and most if not all desire more than just that.

And there is of course mental health, a much lower rate of opioid prescriptions and therefore addictions, etc.

Hmmm...

Rates of homelessness: Germany - 0.50% USA - 0.17%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_...

Interesting. The difference in homelessness between EU and US may just be perception and not reality?

Housing market in any major city in most developed EU countries is notoriously inaccessible and expensive, while the media PR of their social systems promise the moon.

Most countries, and for that matter most urban areas in the US, routinely force the homeless off the streets pretty systematically.

California (and especially the Bay Area) get a lot of criticism for their homelessness not because SF is especially cruel to the homelessness, but because in the Bay Area it’s not generally considered acceptable to sweep the homeless out of town.

For instance, New York City (at least in Manhattan) was aggressive for many decades about rounding up the homeless and forcing them out of town.

This doesn’t mean the Bay Area is doing a good job with homelessness, the root of US urban homelessness does genuinely seem to be a combination of missing middle housing and a shortage of affordable and accessible mental/physical health care.

But the mere presence of visible homelessness is more about (direct) police tolerance, and (indirect) municipal political tolerance for visible homelessness.

How homelessness is measured varies massively between countries. So Britain has an estimated 4751 people sleeping rough, but 307,000 people who are homeless, i.e. living in temporary accomodation, sofa surfing etc. The USA has an estimated 190,000 people sleeping rough (in cars, tents, on the streets) but only counts a total of 540,000 people as homeless. I don't know how the American figures are counted but the German ones are probably estimated in a similar way to the British ones because we live standardised statistics in the EU.

Surprisingly, there are no official statistics on homelessness in Germany. Any numbers you see are not from the federal government, but probably from BAGW, a charitable organization supporting the homeless.

Their estimate for 2016 is 860,000 homeless people (including approximately 440,000 homeless refugees). The number of unsheltered homeless people was estimated to be 52,000. [1]

[1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u...

That sounds about right for street homeless for a European nation. The UK figure in reality is probably about that as the way street homelessness is measured in the UK is set up to undercount.

The data might depend on how well it is gathered but it could be true: The mentioned safety-net is rather bureaucratic and if you don't comply with orders (like getting a job, showing up for dates) they can scrap it completly for up to 3 months - including rent! That causes homelessness and then there are lot of immigrants (not asylum-seekers) from other EU and non-EU countries that have no right to these payments.

The rising prices for rent in cities are maybe also an factor. Besides that most homeless have some psychatric issues like addiction or psychic-problems (not everyone of cource but it's a factor) and while there is treatment available it's often not accepted and not always successfull.

That does not surprise me. I didn't think Germany was that bad, but my anecdotal experience staying the night at an immigrant heavy area in Frankfurt was that they had quite a bit of what looked like drugged up and/or homeless people laying around. I didn't see any homeless camps, but this was also in the middle of the city. The strangest part was that just a mile up the road there were hundreds of well-off younger people partying into the wee hours, and quite a police presence near them. Didn't see a single cop in the homeless populated area.

I'd wager that those on those "safety net" programs with the allowance of an apartment, etc, are still technically considered homeless and counted into those statistics.

I'd be curious to know for sure. It certainly sounds like the suffering and shame would be reduced, and for someone truly down on their luck it would make it easier to get back into working and life in general if you have an address to point to. Also, it reduces those sanitary problems.

I also wonder for how long the average person is homeless in Germany.

Look at Japan with 0.0039%, I wonder what they’re doing.

This is a good breakdown of how incompatible homelessness statistics are. Really that Wikipedia table is hugely misleading https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

>> And there is of course mental health

Mental health is THE key issue of the homeless population in Germany. I know some social workers who work with the homeless at the train station in my home town. Its frustrating to see how often these people are ignored with an attitude of "... ahh gee, its sad but what can you do?". There is a basic social security safety net, but if you are unable to even fill out a basic form -- let alone be prepared to fill it out in the first place, because THEY are our to poison you[1], no help that is given to you can help you.

This is also the issue I have with "Basic Income". No form of "Basic Income" will help those people, because they don't need money but treatment and some semblance of dignity in their life -- no basic income can give you that.

[1]: This is not an unusual sad story. Untreated and/or undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenia is pretty common on the street.

> because THEY are our to poison you[1], no help that is given to you can help you.

> Untreated and/orundiagnosed paranoid schizophrenia is pretty common on the street.

There is nothing paranoid in it. Imagine being homeless while being abused and threatened probably multiple times. What guarantee one have that the food pieces given by passerby or anyone generally are good to eat?

The relevant German policy is one of massive housebuilding. For decades they have had policies and programs to just build a ton of housing, because that depresses wage inflation pressure, which is important for their export economy. Building homes also happens to be a good idea for your citizens!

California, meanwhile, has recently hit an all-time low in home construction and the 2018 "boom" in housing starts was lower per-capita than any pre-1980 housing "bust".

Because Europe has a social safety net. In Germany, for example, if you are a homeless German citizen, the government will provide you with an apartment which includes running water, internet, television, and a refrigerator, and they will give you a small allowance of spending money.

If you want to see massive homeless populations in Europe, go to Brussels.

There are very similar programs for the homeless in many of the cities with the worst homeless population, including SF. The helpful resources are there for people.

Most of the homeless in these areas just don't make use of these programs because of drug addictions and/or mental illness. It's a sad state, but it's not what you describe.

I can only speak as a tourist, but if you’re out in the wee hours of the morning in London you can see plenty of folks sleeping on the street. I’m assuming that come 6am or something they’re told to move along.

If your experience with the US is mainly restricted to the west coast (and especially the SF Bay Area), then you probably overestimate how many homeless people there are in the US as a whole. Homeless people are dramatically more common on the west coast than they are anywhere else in the country.

I'd be quite interested to see statistics about this, because homeless people are definitely not rare in Western Europe, and I would have though the proportion is at least similar to the US.

Socialism.

Taxes are used to pay for things like housing assistance, welfare, health care, and so forth. Also, "minimum wages" are higher.

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