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Comment by krn | Hacker News Reader

I think Berlin, Germany provides a much better value for money for software developers, because one would need to earn 200k in Zurich to maintain the same standard of life that requires only 100k in Berlin[1].

Switzerland is a great choice for someone who just wants to save as much money as he can during a short period of time before moving somewhere else, or for people working in non-tech industries, who would make very little doing the same job in other parts of Europe.

Still, there are much more enjoyable places to be in Europe for someone without kids, and much more cheaper for someone with.

[1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

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Unless you're spending all your income, you cannot use Numbeo and other CoL calculators to make comparisons between gross salaries in different countries.

I'm Swiss and I worked in Berlin, I guarantee you absolutely don't need to make twice the salary to keep your standard of living. Taxes alone mean that above a certain salary, you actually need to make more in Germany.

And while the situation is better than in Switzerland, Germany isn't some kind of paradise for parents with young kids. All the people we hired and relocated from overseas had trouble finding Kitas.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180524/how-a-childcare-crisis-is-l...

> Taxes alone mean that above a certain salary, you actually need to make more in Germany.

Including taxes, the difference is 160k (Zurich) vs 100k (Berlin) for the same standard of life.

I am not claiming that Switzerland is a bad choice, but it's not some kind of paradise, either.

Of course, the higher the percentage of income one saves, the better deal working in Switzerland is.

Especially, if one later chooses to spend those savings outside of it.

100k gross in Berlin is about 60k net assuming private healthcare insurance. Say you spend 10k a year on rent + utilities, which is very optimistic for someone that would move to Berlin in 2019.

160k gross in Zürich is ~115k after social contributions and taxes. Let's assume 5k for health insurance and 25k on rent a year.

You're still 30k CHF ahead in Zürich. I don't see how these salaries are comparable.

> You're still 30k CHF ahead in Zürich. I don't see how these salaries are comparable.

How? Because everything costs twice as much in Zurich.

You can afford a way more with 50k / year in Berlin than with 80k / year in Zurich.

First, not everything costs twice as much, far from that. Big expenses are going to be similar, or even cheaper due to the lower VAT. Electronics, vehicles, transportation, travel/vacation, broadband... there are really plenty of items in my budget that are more significant than the price of a liter of milk.

And again, assuming people are spending their entire income is completely ridiculous.

You can deny reality all you want, but anyone who's lived in both countries will confirm what I'm saying.

> And again, assuming people are spending their entire income is completely ridiculous.

Indeed. This only applies to low income households. If you are a software engeneer, COL no longer matters that much, because you only spend maybe a third of your income locally. Thus the net income matters much more.

This is also why people usually move from low to high COL areas and not the other way around.

> Big expenses are going to be similar, or even cheaper due to the lower VAT. Electronics, vehicles, transportation, travel/vacation, broadband...

These are not big expenses. Buying real estate is. And the price per square meter in Zurich is twice higher than in Berlin, making the difference in salary neglectable.

It's obvious that working in Switzerland makes buying things produced in the rest of the world look cheaper. But if a house in Zurich costs 1 mln, and a house in Berlin costs 0.5 mln, one needs to work no less to be able to afford it.

Therefore, someone making 100k in Berlin can easily have a similar quality of life as someone making 160-200k in Zurich.

Do you really need to buy real estate in Zurich? You can work in Zurich and buy real estate in Prague.

Btw it's a 35 min train ride from Zurich to a German town with a supermarket that has German prices. There are people going there with cars (40 min drive) and bringing back stuff for friends.

> And the price per square meter in Zurich is twice higher than in Berlin, making the difference in salary neglectable.

Housing is more expensive in Zürich than in Berlin. That's accepted but already was factored in: You will pay a higher rent or mortgage there. But nobody pays 100% of his salary for the apparment. At the end of the month, you will definitely have left more in our account of 200kCHF in Zürich than 100kEUR in Berlin.

> How? Because everything costs twice as much in Zurich.

Electronics/Computer stuff does not cost twice as much in Zürich, cars do not cost twice as much, and your vacation does not cost twice as much. Saving money cost the same as every else (captical tax might vary) so unless you retire in Zürich, you will end up with much more in your account. Plus the retirement plan in Switzerland in much better than in Germany.

I don’t think Zurich and Berlin can be compared without considering your personal preferences. If you need a million people around you’ll feel lonely in Zurich. If you’re into mountain hikes and skiing, Berlin is just plain boring.

People are happy in Berlin and Zurich but for different reasons (and usually you couldn’t change that with money).

Good points.

Berlin has definitively a bigger Startup scene and generally more companies to pick from than Zurich.

In terms of salary you have to also account for taxes (100k in Germany will be taxed at around 45% and in Switzerland (Zurich) around 30%.

I also think Berlin is a city full of culture and brimming with life.

As a single male/female, zurich and geneva can get quite dull imo

On the other hand, in Zurich you have a crystal clear lake where you can swim in the summer. Take a 1.5 hour train and you are in the Alps.

> in Zurich you have a crystal clear lake where you can swim

There are more than 30 lakes in Berlin[1], and more than 100 lakes around it[2].

[1] https://www.visitberlin.de/en/lakes

[2] https://www.brandenburg-tourism.com/detail/id/17723/theme/a-...

Well yes, but some Swiss taxes are applied at the point of sale e.g. trash bags, which are very expensive. It's not straightforward to compare salaries in these circumstances.

2$ for a bag is expensive (in Zurich)?

You can buy a bag a day and it will cost you less than half a percent of your net income.

Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin? I would guess the relative number for SDEs is less than getting a 350k$ job in Seattle or the bay area. Even if you are a highly skilled IC (e.g. in a principial developer / architect position) most companies won't pay that much. If you are looking for a manager role the chances might be a lot better.

> Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin?

I think just as many that pay 200k CHF in Zurich.

> I would guess the relative number for SDEs is less than getting a 350k$ job in Seattle or the bay area.

That can definitely be true, because in Europe the size of the salary matters much less than in the US[1].

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/68v4vu/comment/dh1...

> That can definitely be true, because in Europe the size of the salary matters much less than in the US[1].

I don't believe in that. Yes, the housing prices might scale with the income. However if I want to buy a car, it's about the same price here and there. Just that my income is lower, and I have to save a lot longer for that. The same is true for all electronics devices, going to vacation, etc.

> Well, how many jobs that pay 100k€ can you find in Berlin?

Unless you are C level you can forget about it.

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