The MacBook keyboard fiasco is way worse than Apple thinks
m.signalvnoise.com
m.signalvnoise.com
I have a 2018 macbook (from work). I love how fast it is, and the touchID built in. Almost everything else is a regression:
- No USB ports
- No magsafe connector
- Useless touchbar (for me anyway). Actually worse than useless as it disrupts my previous workflows.
- Terrible keyboard even when working to spec.
It's a shame. I still have my 2009 MBP and mid-2013 rMBP and had already budgeted ~$3000 every 4-5 years for a brand new machine. As my 2013 is starting to show it's age I really have no idea what I'd get, but there's no fucking way I give Apple $3000 for a computer I know I don't like.
Wish Lenovo could match up with form factor and screen quality.
To be real though I don't like the touch bar either.
And I'm trying to train myself to use jj instead of ESC.
But still. I miss my ESC / hardware volume / hardware brightness buttons etc.
" j + k = normal mode
inoremap jk <esc>
inoremap kj <esc>
And it has the added benefit that, if you type it when already in normal mode, it's effectively a no-op (as opposed to jj, which will move the cursor two lines down).
With caps lock remapped to Ctrl its easy to reach from the home keys and requires no Vim configuration.
I am 50/50 VIM / EMacs so the it's important for my control key to be on the home row.
I'm not sure why keyboards even have caps lock. It's rude in chat right :-) I started with Sun keyboards where control was on the home row. I guess if one spends hours typing long capitalized acronyms daily, then it makes sense.
It's personal preference in the end. I certainly wont buy another MBP - my 2016 has had 4 trips to the Apple store since I bought it for key replacements.
Personally, I prefer the Control-[ combo as it allows me to slide my left pinky slightly from the home row and right pinky 45 degrees up and right to produces an ESC. Over the years it has made having to hunt for a physical ESC key quite irritating for the few programs which require it :-).
HTH
Instead of using jj or escape in Vim/Spacemacs, I just use control+[.
With caps lock mapped as control, it's a single fast motion--left pinky to caps lock, and right pinky to [. I've been using this setup for years. It's one of the first things I setup on a new computer/OS.
Mapping caps lock to control also has other benefits. You can quickly zip around the terminal using control+a/e/k/y/d/r etc. As an added bonus, the same keyboard shortcuts work equally well on both macOS and Linux [1].
[1] https://www.ostechnix.com/list-useful-bash-keyboard-shortcut...
My personal machine's still a 2014. Keyboard's much better (almost as good as the design that came before it), I don't miss the larger touchpad at all when I'm on mine with its smaller one, and I do not want to pay extra money for a touchbar that I basically have to disable first thing to have a usable machine. Oh and I have to disable force-touch because otherwise I can't reliably click-n-drag files. So all the new fancy stuff I turn off because I can't use the machine with them on.
Getting rid of the long cable for the charging brick while raising prices is a slap in the face, too. Oh and all my stuff's still USB-A. Friggin' Apple. I hate that they can mess up so badly and still be far enough ahead of the competition that it's hard to switch.
you can't feel what "key" you will be pressing
you get no feedback when you press a "key"
for the last one, there is an app which makes the touchpad vibrate... which really isn't the same feeling though
so yeah... that touchbar is a useless POS...
The 13" MBP has a 54Whr battery, the 15" an 83Whr battery.
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/travelling-safely-batt...
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/as...
Lines 7-8: https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/safe-travel/batteries
In your FAA document, page 2, line 3.
I’m finding it hard to see a scenario where I would prefer a charger over a little additional weight on the laptop itself.
But guess what? It doesn't really matter. I'd still pick the 2014 chassis if it was specced the same as the 2018.
I do hope the next chassis will fix the keyboard and maybe even add back the sd-card reader, not to mention introduce top spec non-touchbar models.
If they just extended the bulge a centimeter out to the edges it wouldn't look as slim but it would easily be able to fit magsafe, USB-A, HDMI, and maybe even RJ45.
Let's add a few millimeters back and give us MagSafe and the old keyboard.
I think between 2013 and 2018 I went through three replacement MagSafe 2 adapters at $75 a pop.
The MagSafe idea I miss. Their implementation? No.
I wonder whether it's related to the push to be more environmentally friendly.
That's an interesting take. I don't think it holds up because their charge cables have been falling apart before the charger reaches end of life for at least as long as I've been using MacBooks, so 13 years.
It really has to be a nightmare trying to optimize cables for environmental friendliness, especially in an environment where the looks are so important. I don't know about all the options as I'm not in the business, especially for white cables there simply doesn't seem to be many, or even any reasonable option.
Notably, the newer generation of chargers seems to have replaceable cables. Maybe that's the least bad?
Prior to this laptop I would upgrade every two years.
I'm not sure about the Macbook's bundled SSD.
For the Lenovo, I'm incorporating the cost of upgrading to a 1TB Samsung 970 Evo Plus NVMe SSD (which has a stated sequential read/write speed of 3500/3300 MB/s).
And because the Lenovo is not using a proprietary connector (as my current Macbook is) and does not have soldered RAM (as my current Macbook does), I can upgrade both of those components down the line too.
Apple replaced them during my update too
I’ve not heard about anyone else having this problem with loose USB-C sockets
The power cable was the wobbliest, but is now quite firm again
Also, what is up with macbookpro's Bluetooth? Everyone at my office has the 13" and no one can use Bluetooth consistantly. Lost connections, no connections, etc.
-> (===) <- squeeze the rounded ends in just a tiny bit.
(Edited to add: the goal is to bow outwards the straight sides of the plug just enough to provide grip without preventing it from being inserted into the socket)
We have external monitors/kb/mouse through OWC Thunderbolt 3 Docks and we have a lot of trouble with the connectors on the Macbook making everything unreliable.
The whole thing is a little crazy since the OWC dock is as expensive as an iPad or a cheap windows machine.
I. of course have. keyboard. issues. as well – in case the random periods. and multiple spaces thing did not. make it obvious.
Figured this would. be a good time to. not correct the. issues. Along with the space bar my left command key doesn't always register, its shit.
I think the USB-C port would be better in the back of the laptop instead of on the side where it gets in the way & becomes loose if you use it anywhere other than a flat surface.
Also it seems like an admission of defeat on the touchbar. I don't see how adoption would ever happen if the only people with access to this hardware spent 2K+ on their device.
Too bad it's so anemic.
I wonder how the Air would compare to an iPad pro in benchmarks.
I choked on my beer
I have my fingers crossed that they will redesign the MBP and fix the keyboard before my 2013 dies. Hope springs eternal.
The Carbon X1 has a nice 2560x1440 HDR screen and similar form factor.
Then they also have the X1 Extreme and P1 if you want 64GB of memory or a 15" version. And the T480S which hyou can still upgrade yourself, but isn't quite as slim.
I went from MacOS to Fedora and haven't really looked back. I have old Macs as boxes for Logic Pro, for iOS builds, and for the occasional Photoshop work, but I don't find myself needing to carry them with me anymore.
For me, and I suspect for a lot of folks, desktop Linux is probably good enough (and, for me, enjoyable in a way that MacOS used to be but isn't anymore) to be very productive and Lenovo's hardware is fantastic.
But even now, desktop Linux is constantly broken. I just recently spent an hour getting wifi drivers to work again, and switched back because I remembered just how frustrating it is to have everything feel like it’s “third world” computing.
Maybe to some people that makes sense, but to me that's the equivalent of uninstalling a version of .NET in Windows and then being greeted with a command line version of Windows on your next reboot.
It's been a long time since I used apt, but you were almost certainly warned.
Consider using ASDF for userland Python version management in the future on both MacOS and Linux.
Choices imply the ability to make a bad one. And it's a fairly recoverable one in your case, so I gotta say the criticism feels weak.
Sure you are.
It's a shame that hardware manufacturers with closed, low quality, drivers taint the image of an excellent OS for power users. However, being power users and all, the extra step of using only good hardware is not too much to ask.
I ask because, in the context of this thread, everything works on the Lenovo laptops that have been mentioned. I've got two (a work and a home one, one with a discrete GPU and one without) and I dropped Fedora on them and it just worked. I keep my Macs for stuff I can't do (as mentioned elsewhere, Logic Pro and the occasional iOS build), but I've been running FC28 and then FC29 as a baseline OS for a year now with no trouble. Probably my only complaint is that the IR camera is higher in the load list than the visible-light camera so I have to remember to select the correct one for teleconferences, but if that's the biggest issue I've got with it...man, that's a pretty good place, for me.
There is definitely janky hardware out there. Would never say otherwise. But most of the time, business hardware from the big manufacturers, especially ones that will sell you a Linux laptop, will set-and-forget.
I have a Mac laptop because: 1) the battery life is outstanding, this is OS and hardware, 2) it just works from the standpoint of roaming between networks and connecting periferals (all be it through limited port options), 3) the experience is generally one of it just works with zero thought.
Now I won’t lie, I’ve considered Lenovo, it’s definitely on my list of what I would choose to replace my Mac laptop with, but I have plenty of experience with Windows, don’t like it. I have plenty of experience with Linux, don’t want to deal with issues when I’m disconnected and remote. So while Apple has hit a stumbling block here, for me it’s still the best experience that I’ve had using a computer.
Except work reliably without me having to waste time fiddling around with drivers and settings.
A few weeks ago, I installed Ubuntu 18.04, the latest LTS version, on my desktop. So, this isn't some nerdy Arch or Gentoo setup, it is basically the most mainstream GNU/Linux-based OS you could possibly imagine. I couldn't even log in because the Nouveau driver would crash every time I tried. (Maybe they've never tested it on a 4K display? Or with my specific card? Who knows.)
Also, Ctrl+Alt+FN to go to a TTY did not work, so I couldn't even fix it by installing the proprietary Nvidia drivers from there.
I was able to log in by changing to a non-default desktop environment, or maybe login/display manager? I don't remember the details. Anyway, it "worked", with slideshow-tier FPS, until I installed the proprietary drivers and everything was fine.
This isn't a fluke -- it is consistent with almost 15 years of experiences trying to use GNU/Linux on the desktop.
Something like this has simply never happened to me when using an Apple product.
These days having to fiddle with drivers on Linux is a rarer and rarer occasion. I haven't had to worry about this ever since I ditched my NVIDIA card a couple of years ago.
For desktop especially, I've had close to zero problems over most of that time, and especially recently, though I admit that I've always used the proprietary Nvidia drivers.
My desktops have always been generic, build your own affairs, with relatively slower/older graphics cards up until the past five years, where I've been getting one generation back from the high end Nvidia cards.
There's no question that the hardware integration for OSX is better. But, for desktop at least, in my experience, Linux has been pretty close for quite a while, though I know my experience has been better than what others have reported.
You need to do some research when buying hardware that is compatible with Linux -- this is why everyone in this thread recommends Lenovo X1. It's more expensive than other laptops, but it is really compatible Linux hardware.
Also it takes some time to get driver support into Linux kernel, so for average hardware that doesn't specifically supports Linux, I'd expect about 6 months to a year after hardware release; also for a jump in video quality -- it takes Xorg some time to get proper video support, though I saw Lenovo Yoga machines working with 4K just fine a few years ago. (Disclaimer Lenovo Yoga is not as well supported in linux as Lenovo X1 carbon)
Nvidia is notoriously hostile to linux, which made it a no-go for me and I'm sticking to either AMD or Intel for my video cards, where everything works flawlessly.
I believe the point the parent is making that Apple hardware is now bad enough that having Linux on well supported hardware, would require less fiddling and would provide better user experience.
Exactly. Business-class machines will generally do you just fine.
My experience: most of the Lenovo T, X, and P laptops, modulo some of the tablet/Yoga features, work out of the box. I had a HP Spectre x360 13" before a Lenovo (took it back for other reasons, didn't like the keyboard) in early 2018 and it worked out of the box--and with a 4K display besides. I've used Dell's XPS 13 and XPS 15, and they worked out of the box, too.
I realized last week that I at this point can safely assume that stuff is gonna just work with my machines. I plugged in a Lenovo Thunderbolt 3 dock with two monitors, headphones, Ethernet, and a bunch of USB devices and I didn't even stop to think first whether or not that it'd break. It didn't. It is predictably acceptable, today, in 2019.
It's emphatically not perfect. I have complaints. But the showstoppers are gone, if you buy mainstream gear.
NVidia 1070 Ti
> You need to do some research when buying hardware that is compatible with Linux
This backs up my point -- I don't have to waste time researching anything with macOS.
> Nvidia is notoriously hostile to linux
That may be true, but as a user, I don't care why macOS works better, or whether it's fair. I just care that it does.
> I'm sticking to either AMD or Intel for my video cards, where everything works flawlessly.
Not an option if you need CUDA support.
> I believe the point the parent is making that Apple hardware is now bad enough that having Linux on well supported hardware, would require less fiddling
Researching what hardware is supported counts as fiddling.
You are comparing apples and oranges by complaining that Linux didn’t work on a laptop where it didn’t come preinstalled, whereas OSX worked on one where it did. If you tried to install OSX on the laptop you installed Linux on instead it would almost certainly fail, and if itnworked it would be because of orders of magnitude more research needed to build a hackintosh.
In a comparison with Windows Linux might fail the “install on a random laptop and have it working” test, but certainly not against OSX.
My life is basically 3 browsers and Adobe CC and a code editor and a bunch of cloud file stores. I also connect to a pile of cloud Linux VMs in AWS and GCP, but I can use any decent terminal app for that. (Biggest problem for me is, access to my Photos on Windows, for personal life stuff.. but I can keep the old MacBook around for that).
I know a few people who need new hardware now and would consider buying a Windows laptop now for a year until the news is that Apple has fixed their stuff. And who's to say it's that much of an issue that people won't stick with Windows even then?
I'll also add: the new iMac Pros are nice, but the issues they've had with the Mac Pros make me wonder if they can even get a new notebook hardware line "right".
I like having Messages on my desktop, but I also sit at my desktop with an iPad and an iPhone. When my MacBook Air dies, I'll need a machine I don't hate.
Turns out, I probably hate Windows less than I hate new Apple laptop hardware.
I've got an AMD Ryzen powered Acer with Ubuntu, it runs better than when it had Windows on it.
The T490...is a regression, more in line with the T480s, and it makes me sad.
I am literally buying an extra T480 to put away until I need it.
The touchbar is dumb and should just go. No physical escape key is such a braindead move it makes me lose respect for Apple.
Magsafe I'm kind of mixed on. Magsafe was awesome, but it also got super hot -- so hot that I'd have to change how I was sitting on the bed or couch. Haven't had that problem with the USB one.
The lack of ports is dumb too. My previous macbook was plenty light -- I don't need a thinner/lighter laptop. But thank god they left in the audio jack.
The ginormous trackpad is another braindead move. Do all Apple designers have tiny hands?
It feels like consumers are the users that would like to look down from the screen to see a small second touchscreen.
They should fire whoever designed the arrow key layout. The up and down keys(the ones used most often) are super tiny. I regularly find myself wanting to hit up and accidentally hitting down or left.
What MacBook doesn't have any standard USB ports?
Not everything I connect to a USB-C port works.
Not in the sense of "if you buy a device, this is probably the connector it has". The fact that it's defined by USB-IF or whoever doesn't mean that USB-C devices are common or inexpensive.
the removal of the escape key (I'm a vim user)
HTH
I'd encourage you to check out the Dell XPS series. My XPS 15 with a 4k display seems higher quality than the macbook display. It looks really good. It also has USB A and USB C ports, and even comes with an escape key! And Linux support is top notch.
Lenovo X1 Carbon? That's what I bought instead of a MacBook Pro 13, and I absolutely love it.
No Magsafe connector, but two Thunderbolt 3 ports, USB-C charging (even via low-end chargers, like a Nintendo Switch adapter), two full-size USB ports, HDMI out, the best laptop keyboard I've ever used, a 4K HDR screen, etc.
Yes, it's slightly thicker than a MacBook. But it uses that space to be such a better computer.
But I am so much happier with everything else that I am willing to put up with it.
The main difference is that some of the pad click actions I found frustrating and unintuitive, but I now use the buttons which work fine.
Hey me too. I wonder how many of us there are?
The macbook touchbar is a disgrace and I have NEVER seen anybody use it to improve on their workflow.
But fast forward several years later to the 2018 model, and I've come to really appreciate it.
Even as a heavy user of keyboard shortcuts, I rarely, if ever, use function keys.
The only regular usage that comes to mind is editing markup in the Chrome dev tools (F2 shortcut). And I rarely used the Escape key. After remapping caps lock to control, and then using control+[ for escape, you're free to use Vim, Emacs, etc. without getting carpal tunnel. I cannot fathom people actually hitting escape on a regular basis when using Vim; that seems like ergonomic egregiousness :-).
In some ways, I find the touch bar to be _more_ efficient than dedicated function keys. Changing the brightness and volume, for example, require only a single motion--tap and move the slider to the desired setting (no need to tap first, and then slide). So instead of repeatedly tapping a dedicated key, you can immediately dial-in the desired setting.
Also, I've found when watching videos or music, having a large slider on the touch bar to adjust the video position is pretty nice. Very easy to jump around.
And context-sensitive shortcuts are generally well-designed. Some things I've found useful on the touch bar include screenshots--a visual representation of the various options are shown on the screen (current window/full-screen/or region), along with options for where to save the screenshot.
Other useful features include tab-preview and switching in Safari, word suggestions as you're typing, and type to Siri (e.g. once enabled, you can tap the Siri icon and say "remind me to do X in Y hours"). Not to mention other useful tidbits like emojis when using iMessage.
I can see how people might dismiss the touch bar without having explored its capabilities--but there's no denying the innovation behind context-sensitive dynamic keys. Overall, I'm a big fan.
On Linux (specifically gnome), the situation is a bit different as function keys tend to be more prevalent.
I bought a 2018 15' MBP last week. I wanted the 2018 model for the 6 core CPU, so did not have a choice regarding the TouchBar.
Here are some of the issues I've experienced since the purchase:
1. I keep on hitting escape multiple times because I don't know if I've touched it or not. More often than not, I will press it one time too many or not trigger it at all. I don't look down at the keyboard when I type.
2. I switched the TouchBar to show function keys (f1, f2, etc) by default. I plugged in an external monitor and was prompted if I want to extend the screen or mirror it. After selecting one of the options, there is NO WAY to change your external display settings using any keyboard shortcuts.
3. Every time I want to change volume or brightness, I have to look down at the TouchBar. It gets annoying, it is unnecessary, and again I have to look at the damn TouchBar to be sure how much I've lowered/increased the volume/brightness.
4. I use vim. It is a nuance.
I bought this to do development work, mainly because I highly value the trackpad and OSX user experience. But to be honest, I am contemplating returning it within the 14 day window because how fucking annoying the TouchBar is. Knowing that without this gimmick, the device would have more battery, more space to accommodate a proper keyboard mechanism, just makes me wonder how much out of touch with the users must the designer or product manager at Apple be? Not to mention that without it, MBP would probably cost around $150-$200 less.
The TouchBar is utter garbage. Why slap it on a $2,000+ "pro" machine? It makes the MBP line up an expensive gimmick toy for rich kids. Total cashgrab and disdain towards their customer segment who rely on these machines for actual work.
I won't go into details about the butterfly keyboard and magsafe. While those decisions are unpopular, they aren't as debilitating as the TouchBar.
I remember Steve Jobs talking about the downfall of Xerox being caused by marketing people taking over control of sales and product development. Now Apple is following the same footsteps. They're abandoning good and sound designs which got them to where they are now.
Sorry, but I had to rant. The TouchBar is utter garbage.
also fyi you can map caps lock to esc so that resolves your esc issue at the least
I'm holding onto my 2015 for dear life but it's still going very strong, i imagine i can keep using it a few more years at least
Well maintained 2015 MBP on ebay are too expensive for the kind of hardware that they have. In my opinion, at least.
People kept saying the same thing about wanting 32GB memory in a laptop. Look what happened.
szggzs27's workflow could be vastly different than yours, and in no way invalidates either, but assuming that there's no need for a 6 core in a laptop is profoundly judgmental and ignorant.
I was ready for an upgrade from my 2013 MBP, so I went with a Dell XPS 15. Really no complaints about it, although it is heavy/large for lugging around to a quick coffee shop jaunt. I picked up a refurb Surface Pro i5 for those, which I am just now getting around to setting up.
The XPS 15 trackpad is slightly worse than my 2013 MacBook's, but I use it mainly as a desktop replacement (it literally replaced a Skylake i7 Hackintosh I was using as my desktop.) Everything else works well.
I have WSL set up on Windows 10, which is really, really neat. It's a full Ubuntu instance in a window, without the overhead of a standard virtual machine. I had an entire LAMP development set up on it in under an hour (and most of that time was just waiting for it to run updates.)
I mainly use the Adobe suite, a web browser, and now that I'm writing software again, a LAMP stack. The XPS 15 is a perfect fit for this. I did turn automatic updates off when I first got the computer, so it prompts me to run the "seasonal" updates, not unlike macOS. Everything else was super easy to get used to.
As am I. It finally made me move ESC to Caps Lock and it's actually way better IMO.
Agree with all of your other points though.
I moved from Linux to a Mac for work a while ago, and I can't stand how terrible the dock and window system is.
* Alt-tab is useless. It has no way to choose a particular window without raising all the windows of the same application in the current workplace.
* What's worse, it will move workflows if there's no window open in this one.
* There's no way to say "open this application" to the dock without right clicking. Clicking an icon is a bet on whether it will open a new window, raise all the windows of the application over whatever you are doing, or move workspaces for no particular reason.
The whole system seems to be done for a one-window-per-application workflow which doesn't exist in 2019. My usual workspace has a Vim window, a terminal, and several Firefox windows open; it's impossible to move comfortably between windows without using Mission Control each time. Windows 95 had better window navigation than MacOS Mojave.
Think about it, if you have N apps open with M windows each, then on macOS you need at most N+M key presses to reach your desired window, while on Windows you may need up to NM key presses.
23 years ago, Windows allowed me to do this in 1 or 2 clicks without looking. Now it's either a lot of clicks and observation or making a mess of my workspace.
Let's say I'm focused on my terminal, and I want to focus on the Firefox window that's besides me. The shortcut is Alt-tab Alt-~, but after doing the first key:
1. All Firefox windows in the current workspace go to the top of my screen
2. If there were no Firefox windows in the current workspace, OSX helpfully moves to the next one.
3. Even after that happens, I need to cycle among all Firefox windows. There's no way to Alt-tab repeatedly between pairs of windows of different applications.
Once you pick the a window, it will be foregrounded. Everything else will stay the same.
I’ve also mapped a four finger down gesture to open App exposé.
it is crazy how bad windows management is on Mac. Every Mac users that I know have installed some softwares (like spectacle) to help with this. Some people must make a lot of money selling software that solve these issues.
What's crazy is that it is still not built in.
Snapping windows on the sides is something that have existed for a really long time on other systems.
You can do a side-by-side split of two windows by long-pressing the full-screen button, but it would be nice to have something with a little more versatility out of the box. I used to use a program that let me snap windows to the sides Windows-style, but it got in the way of other gestures and I almost always just want two windows side-by-side anyway so I just use the built-in functionality now.
Come on over to the Linux side of the house! Between system76, ZaReason, Purism & Dell, there are some great options for a developer laptop.
And you get to customise a system which works for you, which I consider a plus.
imap jj <ESC>In particular I am a stickler for the mac touchpad quality and, while Dell doesn't quite match it, it's well within the tolerable range for me.
The 4K screen and touch sensitivity are nice bonuses — I didn't think I'd ever use the touch but I have come to using it a lot in casual interactions, e.g. during meetings.
Instead, I got myself a reliable upper-tier ThinkPad for 2/3rds the price of a MBP (and superior hardware), installed GNU/Linux on it, and now I'm living happily ever after.
I don't know if I could go back to a MBP after this, honestly. The ThinkPad is spill-proof, sturdy, has an _excellent_ keyboard, and is pretty much the anti-MBP in every way. And it's been a dream.
This keyboard issue _is_ way worse than Apple thinks. It caused longtime customers (myself included) to entertain the thought of leaving the Apple ecosystem. And speaking for myself, I haven't looked back.
Which ThinkPad did you get?
I used to be a huge Think Pad fan, and wouldn’t mind going back that way
- I wanted first-class docker support, was tired of the wonkiness of OSX + Docker. Seriously, native Docker is better than any feature OSX can offer me.
- OSX lacking a package manager and the dissonance between where OSX installed libraries vs our servers was bugging me
- This is dumb but: I run everything in Linux in production. It is nice to be able to ship binaries from my workstation and have them Just Work instead of having to cross compile everything
- My work was letting me upgrade my laptop, and I noticed I was paying literally 50% of the price for a LOT more computer with the Galgo Pro compared to a MacBook Pro.
I have honestly enjoyed using my System67 Galgo Pro WAY MORE than I ever enjoyed the MacBook. Obviously, if I was a video editor or graphic designer, I would probably go with Windows or OSX.
I was super worried about the upgrade after all the complaining about this latest gen hardware. To be honest, the 2018 is still the best machine I've ever had. My theory is that most people posturing here as if they're going to switch to a ThinkPad or other windows machine don't remember how much using windows and non-apple hardware sucks. I remember quite vividly as I recently switched from a Thinkpad to the Apple ecosystem just a few years ago.
Now if you have the time to fool around with Linux, more power to you, but now that I have kids I've realized spending countless hours fiddling around with drivers and trying to find alternative software was never a good use of my time.
My anecdotal experience: Touch Bar mostly useless but also harmless, the 3rd gen keyboard isn't as bad as people say, USB-C is awesome (buying a replacement USB-C cable for my old external HDD actually gave me better speeds even though the new cable is longer), and I don't miss MagSafe now that I can plug into either side of the machine. Oh, and the audio quality is now good enough for watching movies in bed with the wife w/o an external speaker.
I would also add that, at least with the most recent MBP model, there's one significant downside with its touchpad, and that's its size. On a work laptop that's used for coding, I'd much rather that space go towards full-sized arrow keys, or having dedicated Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys that don't need Fn. Thinkpads give you that.
Mine came back with a new Logic Board, with new SSD, and would not recognize my TM backups at all. (I have 2 separate TM disks)
I decided to rebuild from scratch, and pull down most files from Dropbox, but my Github code will get reloaded as needed, and apps installed when I miss them
Who has time for another 2 days of downtime trying to work through why the TimeMachine backup was “empty” (it still takes 3TB of disk space)?
Not really happy with Apple at the moment
Apple was seemingly able to do twice as much when they were 20x smaller.
I even ran a chmod to remove all old access control data in case it was some internal user id mismatch
Still not visible
That's why Apple was charging $700 for this repair before the 4-year keyboard warranty program started, and why all these computers are going to be basically worth their scrap value as soon as the keyboard warranty program ends.
You have essentially 3 discrete major components that can be replaced separately on the laptops in question.
Display - Self-explanatory.
Top Case - Keyboard, upper shell, trackpad, battery, touchbar (if applicable).
Logic board - SSD (unless a 13" non-touchbar 2016/17 - those have a removable SSD), RAM, CPU. If it has a touchbar, the touchID board gets paired with it and if replacing the Top Case the touchID gets moved over.
USB-C ports are on the board on a 2 port model, separate components on a 4 port model.
-------------
Replacing a Top Case does require disconnecting every single screw and connection and removing every other component out of the thing and swapping it into the new one. Fans, USB-C ports (4 port models), display, vent/antenna module, logic board, display, etc.
It's extremely time consuming to do, even a trained tech isn't going to get that done quickly.
That + the cost of replacing Top Cases for keyboard issues is why it was/is so much money.
I've done repairs on older laptops before, but looking at the instructions from iFixit I don't think I'd try this one.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Retina+MacBook+2017+Upper+Case+...
I appreciate the extra fixes, but was not informed of this specifically until the machine was handed back
They did confirm it was backed up when they took it though, so they assumed I could recover my data
My commentary was only directed at the MBP's, I forget the 12" models exist with how rarely I see anyone actually using one.
Taking apart a 12" MB is a pretty unpleasant experience. The 13-15" MBP's require some non-standard screwdrivers and is very tedious, but not overly complex.
They did tell me, and it’s listed in the paperwork
I've read that some people discourage using this technique due to some permissions stuff, but I've never once had problems restoring data from a Time Machine backup using this method, and I've been doing it since 2012.
The last time I did this it was to migrate from a 2015 to 2018 (don't ask - I would have kept the 2015 if it wasn't for my need for 32 GB).
If you use the migration assistant, you should be able to pull a TM backup that was done on computer A into computer B.
There is something else going on in your setup.
Migration during install, migration after install, migration from Recovery system - none of them found anything, and they would hang forever looking for data
Did you log into your iCloud account before restoring? (I don't remember if that's a step that happens prior to restoring in the new Mac setup flow)
There could be some credential that needs to be provided in order to find/decrypt a TM Backup. If that key was not available, perhaps the OS/UI doesn't even show you the backup as a restore candidate.
https://blog.wadetregaskis.com/full-disk-access-is-required-...
* As long as Steve is around. I really wonder how much longer Tim Cook is going to be at the helm? Him and Ballmer should be golfing buddies by this point.
A) made a non-touchbar, non-fingerprint[1] version B) brought back the 2015 keyboard
IOW, I like my 2015 notebook, but would love to have the latest and greatest SSD, processor, graphics, space gray color, etc.
---
1. My passphrase is > 25 chars and still takes less than 2 seconds to enter; I don't need an extra ARM processor and wasted surface area / more breakable parts for a fingerprint reader. And, I'd rather have the extra +$100 spent on something else, like better screen connection technology, battery, etc.
I'm waiting for Apple to get over its design anorexia and fix the damn keyboard. I had a brief stint with a brand new MBP from my workplace. Keyboard broke within a few weeks.
Here's to hoping my 2015 MBP lives a long and happy life.
I'll probably get a Thinkpad and put Linux on it, but I'm not convinced any Linux is ever going to be quite as pleasant an experience as OS X used to be.
Aside from the reboot problem, I'm happy Linux at least comes with up-to-date tools. Apple's GPLv3 phobia meant I had to continually install Brew and Continuum (Python3) to have modern tools.
I got an X220 with Hackintosh as a backup. What a lovely keyboard!
Let's add to the anecdata: all those who've now moved away from Macs after being burnt by the keyboards and all those who are waiting to replace their Macs when this butterfly nonsense goes away.
Sometime in the near future, I'm just cutting over to an iPad for the majority of my work, I think.
(I also replaced the fans because they were too noisy, but that didn't help. Closing browser tabs did help though. I still haven't replaced the battery, despite it's been telling me for years now that it needs to be replaced. I don't think there's anything else that can be replaced.)
Linux's equivalents all have a fair bit more jank, to put it mildly. Even for terminals, you've gotta do some research and tuning or compromise on features to get something that's as light & responsive as Terminal.app.
* Libre Office is good enough
* Google docs are really good for collaboration.
* Google keep is really good for synching notes between phone and desktop.
* There are cloud-based implementation of libre office that I'm looking at to replace google services
* I really like konsole and yakuake as terminal application, and for me Terminal.app always felt ancient. https://packages.debian.org/sid/konsole https://packages.debian.org/sid/yakuake
* Okular is an amazing pdf viewer (there was a thread about it recently on HN) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19478623
* Firefox might not be as battery optimized as safari on Mac, but I believe all Mozilla's respect for user privacy makes up for the lost battery life.
Similar for Pages and Numbers vs. Libreoffice or Google Docs. They're faster, lighter, and (despite having spent more time using Libreoffice/Openoffice total in my life) easier to use effectively. Another case where I don't hesitate to open them because they're quick to open, don't hesitate to close them for the same reason, and can forget they're open in the background because they're so light and don't bloat or crash when left running. Notes versus Google Keep or whatever is similar—it's a real program that opens very fast and is respectful of resources when running, not some browserware junk.
KDE seems to be the most-integrated Linux UI but I've never managed to "click" with it despite trying since 2 (maybe something in the 1 series, actually? It's been a long time). I don't like the K-suite programs—they seem really heavy to me, and always have—and all the integration stuff goes out the window if you use others, plus then you're usually mixing GTK and QT which is rarely super pleasant. The "just works" integration of the K-suite has also never really "just worked" for me—bugs and inconsistency galore.
* Fonts configuration & tools -- https://wiki.debian.org/Fonts
* I've always found if the touchpad was decent enough all the gestures could be easily configured and supported
* Touchpad configuration and tools -- https://wiki.debian.org/SynapticsTouchpad
* Connecting external displays stopped being wonky 5 years ago. In modern KDE this requires connecting the display and then opening display configuration dialog in System Settings.
* For color calibration, have you tried something like ColorHug 2? https://hughski.com/colorhug2.html A friend of mine has the previous version of it and likes it a lot, but I haven't had the need to calibrate my displays.
* Power management -- If you choose the hardware with good linux support.
* rootless/SIP -- there is selinux, but in general linux security model is different from apple, you just pick whatever technologies you more comfortable with and want to use.
>ugly fonts
I dont have a problem with ugly fonts. Default fonts in Gnome F29 are nice. I use it for dev/devops work, not graphic design so my stds are not exact. Could also be I don't know what a "pretty" font is ;)
>the lack of good touchpad support,
Mac touchpads have always been vastly superior to others. However, the TP Carbon X1 has a really nice touchpad/feel to me...close enough.
>the wonkiness on connecting external displays,
I don't have any wonkiness via chaining 2 external monitors via TB3/USBC - this might be a combo of better hardware in the TP?
>the lack of good color calibration,
not in graphic design so i can't comment here
>iffy power management,
Not sure what you mean here. Latest Fedora + maybe tlp is enough for me to get mac/windows type batt life. Sleeps fine/ wakes fine etc. no issues on TP Carbon X1 (or previously on T47x series)
>and lack of rootless/SIP
AFAIK this is a pretty unique feature to macos
But you should be able to find a range of models available from 2011/2013 - 2016 refurbished at a number of dealers for much cheaper than a new model—if you don't think you need the CPU upgrade, etc.
I wish these guys were available to Canada: https://www.macofalltrades.com/
Thankfully there's a guy in my neighbourhood who has been doing the same thing for a number of years (only on a much smaller scale) who I'll likely go to in order to replace my ailing 2013 MBP soon enough.
edit: You can even find replacement 2011's for not far past $1000.
Commonly known as the "keyboard lottery", some units get a decent keyboard and others a crappy one. And it's still a $2k+ machine.
Other options might be T480/T490 series - for "close" to X1 thinness the T490s (T480s) are an option. I previouly had a T470 and also had no keyboard issues
Dell XPS dev editions are nice but I prefer the TP keyboard
Its workable but its not like ballet.
I switch between GNOME, KDE, and i3. I think GNOME and KDE are as pleasant, if not more so, than macOS.
That's exactly what they've been doing for 10 years. iPhone 6 battery-gate. 6-Plus bending in half when you sit with it in your pocket. The 2016 butterfly keyboard, the one with 58 screws holding it in. Firmware that slows your phone for seemingly no reason. Home button's that stop working and a virtual one to replace it. Screens that won't pull down anymore unless they do it by themselves. And getting them to admit a problem exists has ALWAYS been pulling teeth. Lets face it, you signed up for this. All signs for the last 10 years have pointed to a really nice OS with an overpriced, over-rated machine underneath it. Don't get me wrong, the inside of an Apple product is like electronic-poetry, but when something is poorly designed no amount of build quality will make something last.
You got taken. You should have known this was going to happen because they did it to you last year. And the year before. And the year before. Stop whining about your $3k laptop already. You could have bought 6x i7 powered Dells for the price you paid on one Apple. You asked for this.
Similar to how I see touchscreen keyboards - they're not very good for lengthy typing, but they allow for the optimal form factor for the device.
Coming from a Thinkpad, it's just as accurate to type on after like a week or two it took me to get fully used to it.
...now I just hope it doesn't break :|
The USB-C ports are great, and I am looking forward to the future where old-school USB ports are dead and everything is USB-C. There's the occasional frustration with not having all cables be equal (you could have a USB-C to USB-C cable that transfers power, slow data, or Thunderbolt-3 data… it's unintuitive).
The lack of ESC-key doesn't bother me as much as I thought either. I finally made the switch and remapped caps lock to escape and will never look back. I use BetterTouchTool to get the ideal touchbar with shortcuts to my 5 most used functions, a Spotify player and a couple system controls. It's perfect, customized to my liking, and beat the previous FN-key setup I had. TouchID rocks. I never see Apple's crap TouchBar implementation.
I have been having the keyboard issues, usually it materializes in the form of double impressions of keys I type. I'll end up with `ee` instead of `e`, and a couple other letters like that. Doesn't seem to be happening as much as it used to (after a "top case" replacement for an unrelated TouchBar issues).
It is frustrating because I love macOS, but having keyboard problems makes me reluctant to get another Macbook in the future.
* "we don't call it a recall, we'll just fix it"
I strongly believe that heat under the keys is the cause, and not dust. I never, ever let the CPU temp spike (using iStat menus to show the current temp and disabling Turbo Boost).
I also never charge an external device like a phone or iPad using the USB-C ports to avoid creating heat.
Lastly, this computer never, ever sits on any surface that isn't solid. No bed, no couch, no lap. I use a tray or something similar if it's not on a desk.
If you heat the computer to the point that you feel that trademark snapping sound in the membranes of the keys, you are screwed. You might as well make the appointment right then since your keys will fail soon.
I might just fail this one on purpose because I could use a new battery which you get with the keyboard switch. Oh, and my camera no longer works for some reason.
I really hate the internal keyboard, and I hate the touchbar.
For my personal use I went and bought a Surface Pro at a way lower price than a MBP and have been happy with that because I hate these MBP Touchbar keyboards so much.
It blows my mind that the "Type cover" on the Surface Pro has more travel and feels better than the MBP keyboard. If I was developing on it a lot I don't know if I'd be that happy with windows but I mostly don't do development on it and for that windows & OSX are basically a wash for me. I do some hack type stuff with it, music stuff, photo/video, etc.. both OSes work fine for me with a slight edge to windows occasionally for some of the hacking projects.
$700 to replace it out of warranty will mean I relegate it to a desk and NEVER BUY ANOTHER APPLE COMPUTER AGAIN.
Because someone, somewhere in their vast organization needs to find a solution where a stuck key doesn't require brain surgery to replace the keyboard, top plate, and battery.
I was already sore at the dongle requirements, but willing to overlook in light of the dozen or so OTHER dongles they've made me buy over the years. The subtle differences in OSX that sold really expensive hardware are no longer there.
(And don't get me started on the walled garden permanent phone lease they're easing us into.)
I'm broadening my horizons beyond Logic Pro for recording music, in case my 2013-vintage laptop fails before Apple fixes that problem. If Apple's hardware can't support typical audio peripherals, they should just stop shipping Logic Pro and Garageband as well.
1) Apple is able to be evasive and dishonest until it goes away, probably days after they cancel the free keyboard replacement program and people buy new computers instead of paying Apple $795 to fix Apple's mistake once or twice a year
2) Apple is able to permanently fix it retroactively, but like the trashcan Mac Pro it seems they have painted themselves in to a corner where they cannot proceed and cannot move quickly either
3) Apple offers to replace the affected laptops when they do have an alternative, this is really the best case scenario except 4th gen is coming and if it doesn't fix the issue then it's a long wait to 5th...
Even if they fix it on the next iteration I don't think they would seriously entertain number three without substantial legal action demanding they do the right thing, affected people should consider the $0 resale value on these turds when they're a bit older and get rid of these devices now instead of wait for a $100 settlement in 8 years.
One thing that's quite funny to see is nobody else is able to fix their design flaw either because of how hostile they made the machines to opening up and repairing things.
I have one with a broken keyboard but Apple needs to keep it for at least a week to repair.
Thats a complete non-starter. I dont have backup laptops hanging around to use.
FWIW, it loads and looks fine on both my mobile device and desktop.
At this point, Apple is expending a lot of effort maintaining a desktop OS, and significant effort designing the hardware. If they weren't making adequate money on that portion of their business, then I see no technical reason to continue to require a Mac to develop for iOS.
Phone and charger
Reading glasses
Can of compressed air
The only time I use Macbook keyboard is at cafes or meetups. After 2 years I still don't like and I haven't find a single good use for the touchbar.
In some applications, like Chrome, I noticed that I rest my hands above the number line on the keyboard when I'm thinking, which sometimes opens a new tab.
It's infuriating. Apple broke keyboards. It feels arrogant.
There's no chance for the touchbar to get developer attention if only people who were able to drop 2K+ on a laptop in the past couple years have access to one.
(Mac mini + the new ipad air would probably work as well for many use cases while being cheaper)
The laptops are a huge error though. They’re the most popular type of mac, and they’re all flawed. My macbook air from 2011 still runs perfectly. I couldn't confidently tell someone their butterfly keyboard model would last that long, and desktop + ipad is a more expensive, niche combo. Not everyone can do that. Really bad for the ecosystem in the long run.
I have also accelerated my Linux migration contingency planning. If I were to get a laptop now, it would be one of the System76 Linux models.
Apple will eventually have to make it right, if nothing else the class-action lawsuits will ensure that, but their complacency and bad faith has already caused irreparable damage to the brand.
No, Apple knows exactly how bad it is. They always[0] say "a small number of ..." for every[0] issue they have. They're just stubborn. They'll fix a few as they are brought in and they'll continue iterating on this design and letting new buyers beta test it.
[0] Never use a definitive.
2) Realize that the MBP only has USB-C ports.
3) Buy or requisition a USB-C combo dongle (i.e., a computer wart).
4) Plug keyboard into computer wart, plug computer wart into laptop.
5) Fixed!
Thanks, Apple!
And that's on top of all the other issues that have been discussed. At this point, the only thing holding me back from switching to a Thinkpad is iOS/macOS development. Maybe I should just get a Thinkpad and a Mac Mini. It wouldn't even cost that much more than a MacBook Pro..
Anecdata of course, but my 20 person engineering team has been using MBPs with the new keyboards for the last three years (various models), and so far no one has had a keyboard problem.
I’ve got a 2018 at home which I hammer pretty hard every day and no issues either.
It’s not a popular opinion on HN but I actually like how the keyboard feels.
So I’m not sure the despair is as widespread as it seems on HN. That said it does still seem like the failure rate is unreasonable, and I can easily see Apple losing the class action suits. More than that, this is a PR nightmare, and I’m not sure their “silent treatment” culture is an effective way to handle it.
But the failure rate really is unnacceptable. Within a couple months of getting my 2016 Macbook Pro, keys started dying and falling off. My manager has resorted to just carrying around an external keyboard everywhere.
At my workplace we only have 2 of the new MBP with the new keyboards... 100% of these people have issues with at least one key. They're the most frequent users of the air blowing keyboard cleaner so much that the IT department decided to just leave it out on a counter for us to use without asking.
I'm about to do some moonlighting and cannot use my work computer for this so I'm building a Linux machine to do this. I've been using only Macs for 20 years and I'm going back to Linux for the first time since switching.
Just confirming the survey which is great, I did exactly like in the article. I primarily use my 2017 MBP at work/home where I have keyboards, so haven't been willing to lose the laptop for 2 weeks to be replaced with a keyboard that is reported to have the same faults.
As such, I actively discourage anyone I know thinking about it from buying an apple laptop.
Not buying a new Mac until they get this actually fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3iXEMtmITw
I wish they did better for us customers.
Also budgeted for one. I've also become very cautious over Apple, which is a shame.
I'm guessing this is the effect of hardware monoculture ? If your single-source provider has an issue, there's not much you can do.
Like alcohol wipe + vacuum out the keyboard?
If you make a consumer product that can't withstand basic consumer use then you're doing something wrong.
If I have to go to Lenovo to get a sturdy laptop I'll be sad.
However, that’s just speaking of what they’re like when they work. The failure rate is a major, major problem and they are not doing enough about it, at all.