Comment by reitzensteinm | Hacker News Reader

Comment by reitzensteinm | Hacker News Reader

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I've been to the tank museum in Munster (not to be confused with Münster if you ever decide to go!). Looking up close, comparing the American and German WWII tanks to the Russian ones is absolutely night and day.

The alignment of the panels and the welding on a Tiger tank looks (to an untrained eye) pretty much as good as you could make a mass produced vehicle back then. A T34 by contrast has haphazard misalignments connected by welding that looks like mine did when I was learning in high school.

So you can see with your own eyes that they essentially put the bare minimum of quality in to them.

This is a very interesting talk on the manufacturing efficiency of the US, Russia and Germany in WW2, which drills down into the details of how the factories were organized and the difference in man hours spent on each (which I'll spoil the bottom line of here: US 10k, SU 35-50k, DE 300k).

We've all heard stories about how Russian tanks in certain cases were driven out of factories partially completed straight in to combat, but up until I watched it I hadn't heard of Tiger tanks being rejected by the Wehrmacht because they didn't latest gear stick design. I highly recommend it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xLMUifbxQ&ab_channel=TheNa...

The T34's were designed this way on purpose. They purposely skipped on making things perfect so long as they were functional. The guns worked. The engines worked. The transmissions worked. This is what they needed, nothing more. See the CIA document regarding this tank: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/document/cia-rdp81-0...

The German tanks, on the other hand, were designed and built meticulously...at least in the early days of the war. The downside is they were expensive to build and maintain...and they were not reliable.

For instance, the M4 was designed to be simple and easy to maintain, and required 3 times less the amount of man and materiel than the German tanks required. The engine and transmission in an M4 could be replaced by two men in four hours. For all the fear the larger German tanks (Tiger 1 and II, Panther) caused, the reality is, they did not construct very many because they were expensive. At any one time, half of them were broken and needing time consuming repair.

The German tanks were put together by highly skilled craftsmen. Often, the parts were hand machined or finished for each tank. This meant that the tanks did not have interchangeable parts, and were difficult/impossible to fix in the field. Being unable to fix equipment in the field was a general problem for the German army, as a very large proportion of their trucks and other equipment was captured from other countries, and they had no spares.

Once the Soviets moved their factories beyond the Ural mountains, the Germans, who lacked heavy bombers, had no way to knock out the factories. They stood no chance against the Soviet T34s and tank destroyers at that point.

If you're interested in digging deeper into this kind of history, take a look at "The Second World Wars" by Victor Davis Hanson.

Fascinating. In Britain it's long been recognised that our frequently innovative design engineering is often let down by poor production engineering. Many exmples can be cited: most F1 cars are UK built, but we no longer have an mass market car producer. Everything built by Jaguar and Land Rover! Spitfires took four times as many man hours to build as ME109s. The Rolls Royce Merlin was the best aero engine available to the Allies early in the war, but was effectively hand built. When Packard started building Merlins for the P51 they had to retro fit the production engineering tolerances to the design [2]. So I'm surprised to learn that tank production engineering was so poor. I wonder which models were most affected? Panzer III or IV? King Tiger?

[1] Stephen Bungay - The Most Dangerous enemy. [2] https://www.tested.com/art/makers/492418-packard-merlin-how-...

I only learned this while studying German, but King Tiger is actually a poor translation.

The German nickname for the tank was Königstiger, which is the German name for a Bengal tiger, but if translated literally it would instead be Royal Tiger.

The decision to allow production of Merlin by Packard was a masterstroke. The UKs engineering talent was amazing, and the American production engineering was also amazing. The collaboration of the 2 superpowers was unbeatable.

> So I'm surprised to learn that tank production engineering was so poor. I wonder which models were most affected? Panzer III or IV? King Tiger?

Probably the Pz III and IV, particularly early in the war.

They stopped manufacturing the Pz III in 1943, and around the same time started to rationalise tank production to keep costs down. So a Pz IV produced in 1944 or 1945 would be of a lower production quality standard than one produced earlier in the war.

Another important example seems to be the cavity magnetron in WWII. Developed in the UK, it provided about a thousand times more power than the klystrons the US was using at the time and let the Allies maintain a lead in radar technology: probably an important component of the Allied victory, though under appreciated by the public at large. UK designed, mass-produced in the US. The “Tizard Mission” that this was a part of sounds pretty fascinating and I’ve always told myself I’d pick up a book on it someday.

From the moment Hitler invaded France, he was never more then two months away from running out of oil. German railroads were gridlocked and mismanaged compared to the Russians. Germany spent more money on the V2 project then the USA did on the Manhattan project. Hitler survived a dozen assassination attempts. And then there is the fact that most of their encrypted coms were compromised. It really is a wonder that Germany stayed in the war for as long as they did.

My post was certainly not intended to be read as an indictment of the T-34, though in retrospect it may read like that.

In my opinion, the man hour stats say it all. With the benefit of hindsight, you'd have to be nuts to consciously decide to produce one Tiger instead of 6 T-34s.

Because their air forces were more effective, the Brits and the Americans could rely more on their air forces to neutralize their enemy's tanks (an approach they continued during the cold war, where the A-10 and the Apache helicopter were developed primarily to kill Soviet tanks).

On Battle Stations' episode on the Tiger, a former British M4 commander told the camera that encountering a Tiger sucked, but that the air force responded very quickly whenever he reported one. (The air force used rockets against the Tiger.)

German Stukas were also excellent tank killers, and early in the war, it was the only weapon that could hurt the heavier Russian tanks.

Germany lost their early air superiority in the Battle of Britain, though. Having your pilots shot down over enemy territory while shooting their pilots down over their own territory is a battle of attrition you're eventually going to lose.

>The T34's were designed this way on purpose. They purposely skipped on making things perfect so long as they were functional. The guns worked. The engines worked. The transmissions worked. This is what they needed, nothing more. See the CIA document regarding this tank: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/document/cia-rdp81-0.... The German tanks, on the other hand, were designed and built meticulously...at least in the early days of the war. The downside is they were expensive to build and maintain...and they were not reliable.

This way undersells the T-34 tank. It was a better designed and superior tank to the Sherman and Panzer IV tanks fielded by the US/Germany armies. It may not have been as good as a Tiger, but that's not an apples to apples comparison.

It's not like all T-34s were necessarily bad, it's just that Russia had to build so many of them that they had to accept poor quality tanks.

At the start of the war, Russia had a lot of very different tank designs. Many of those were crap, a few were really good. The T-34 was one of the good ones: it was fast, had a powerful gun, and armour that the German tanks at the time couldn't penetrate. On top of that, it was fairly simple and easy to produce, unlike the heavier KV-1, which was another very successful, but more expensive design.

Once Russia realised they were fighting an existential war, they had to churn out as many tanks as possible to stop the German tide, and the T-34 was simply the most obvious choice. Simple tractor factories were quickly retooled to produce T-34s, and unavoidably, the people making them weren't always properly trained. There just was no time. If it could drive and shoot, it was needed at the front.

And having something that looks like a T-34 but isn't as tough as a good T-34 is not necessarily a bad thing; the Germans can't see the difference from a distance, and they're going to treat it like any other T-34. Swamp them in good and bad T-34s, let the Germans waste their time on the bad ones, so the good ones can kill some panzers.

If you think this is stupid, look at how Russia fought some of the early infantry battles. Desperate measures for desperate times.

If you wanted to win a battle, you'd want a Tiger or Panther, if you wanted to win the war the T-34 would do. A Tigers might kill 30 T-34s, but eventually the weight of numbers would do you in. Same thing with the Sherman, 1 on 1 the Tiger generally wasted it, but with enough Shermans the Tiger would be doomed.

But with 30 tanks vs 1, you need to have a good access to a lot of fuel, which Germany didn't, whereas the allies didn't had this issue, so having less tanks, but more higher-quality, could have been a sound decision (maybe the same with manpower?). On the other hand, fuel used for tanks might make up only a small part of the overall fuel used.

Could be, but they weren't actually higher quality. Tigers were powerful, but the first batch was very unreliable, and they still consumed enormous amounts of fuel.

Most tanks the Germans had were PzIVs, StuGIIIs and Panthers.

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