Apple now repairing MacBook keyboards in store, promising next day turnaround
macrumors.com
macrumors.com
I lied, I'll take one whack at this dead horse: with support costs continuing to escalate (in-store inventory, training, and employees aren't free), now will you fix the keyboards for realsies this time?
One of, if not the biggest problem with many of those Apple fanatic is that Apple could do no wrong. And this is speaking as someone who like Apple but increasingly irritated by their action.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2011/08/users-treat-criticis...
As a cost reduction technique, they rivet the keyboard to the upper chassis of the Macbook rather than the comparatively expensive process of tapping holes and using screws. This has no impact on product performance and quality, but if you happen to use an inferior keyboard then it makes repairs exceptionally difficult. As a result Apple is averse to performing repairs because what could have been an inexpensive keyboard swap now requires replacing the entire uni-body chassis which is an expensive machined part.
Another example is where the Macbook display FRC is soldered directly to the panel to avoid a connector that costs a penny in volume. This reduces manufacturing costs and part counts but introduces the risk that any issues with the FRC require the entire display to be replaced. That's exactly what happened because they made the FRC a few millimeters too short. Apple said that display failures were isolated and not a manufacturing defect however this year's model features an FRC that's a few millimeters longer.
These types of optimizations to the product might save a dollar or two in the BOM but they completely fail to take into consideration support requirements they introduce. Riveting a $ keyboard to a $$$$ machined aluminum chassis makes you adverse to even acknowledging an issue with the keyboard because you'll then have to replace the entire assembly. Forgoing a connector and soldering a $ FRC directly to the $$$$ display means that when the FRC fails due to stress from an engineering fault, you pretend it's an isolated issue to avoid having to replaced entire display assemblies on thousands of devices.
There is a good reason I stick with my mid-2014 macbook.
I'm not aware of that being the case in any U.S. state. How does a consumer protect whatever rights they have? 50% off an external keyboard isn't good enough but people have work to do. Why bother getting yet another "fix" when it too likely fails in a few months? I'd want to make sure that if my warranty is about to expire that I've got documentation that Apple agrees the defect exists and that I'm entitled to a better permanent fix.
Consumer protection laws are important. This finders keepers nonsense makes people angry and they aren't just going to reduce their trust in Apple, their trust in the industry and society is diminished as well.
This is indeed the law in many European countries, at least it is in Turkey, which sources its jurisprudence largely from there. I have successfully used this in TR against a Toshiba laptop (motherboard issue) circa 2004 as barely a high-school kid, much to the chagrin of the distributor's legal team lead. In the end they paid the retail amount in full, though it took a bit of time.
(Personally, I would say the answer is "just put the damn Magic Keyboard in the laptops and get over your pretty pretty selves about the extra 0.5mm," but I have an unfortunate suspicion that's way too simple.)
Typing on the magic keyboards is only marginally better than typing on the butterfly keyboards on their laptops. We have one in the conference room at work and I hate whenever I have to use it...
Edit: To clarify, Apple's newer "magic" Keyboards aren't the same as their older desktop keyboards. They use a butterfly mechanism just like the laptops, and have barely more travel.
Obviously, this is a YMMV thing. I personally just tolerate the butterfly switches, but prefer the Magic Keyboard to the older Apple laptop switches. This is not a preference on my part for low travel switches, either -- my favorite keyboards are actually mechanical ones. But (to me) the MK is the best scissor switch keyboard I've ever used, save for its dumb arrow key layout.
It can happen. I spilled a sugary soda over my plastic Macbook almost 10y ago now, and fried the keyboard. It was easily fixed by ordering a refurb part from OWC and following the steps in their repair video.
The idea of DIY'ing something like that today on an Apple product seems very quaint.
They’ve exchanged the MOBO, display, shell, and keyboard effectively giving me a new computer.
I purchased the extended Apple Care and will probably be left hanging when the 3 year mark comes around.
Definetly happier with my 2011 Macbook Air. Can’t recommend buying the new one.
But hey, sample size 1.
If they extend the program to include this model, you might get 4 years instead of 3. But yeah, the resale value for these machines is going to be terrible. A laptop that might be worth $1k fully-functioning is worth at most $300 if there’s a 60% chance that it will need at least one keyboard repair that costs $700. There’s the monetary cost, the hassle, and the adverse selection problem (that people who are selling their computers are more likely to be in the 60% that had problems, since if it’s working fine you wouldn’t be as likely to sell).
Ultimately these machines will probably end up being purchased for use as desktop machines, exclusively used with external keyboards.
Hopefully with the quick turnaround more people will bring theirs in and get the failure rate numbers up closer to reality vs. the "small number" of failures they seem to think there is.
From a link in the article:
> The program also only serves to service affected keyboards at no charge for up to four years from their purchase date, but replacement keyboards are just as likely to be affected by durability issues.
I'm on the hunt for a new laptop, and would prefer macOS, but this keyboard issue shows how the mbp are simply "not fit for purpose".
The only laptop that is free of this problem is the mba 2017 edition (5th gen i5/ i7) at a heavily inflated price.
It took a lot of handholding to even educate Apple about their legal obligations to consumers in New Zealand.
Eventually after threats of sending copies of letter to consumer protection office they agreed to pay for materials, but I had to pay for labour costs for the fix.
Legally, they were required to pay for everything but I gave in because the labor cost was pretty cheap (I think around $80).
> Legally, they were required to pay for everything but I gave in because the labor cost was pretty cheap (I think around $80).
The Australian Ombudsman for Consumer Rights is super easy to deal with.
Fire off an email that shows you've contacted the right people, and that they haven't fixed the issue.
The ombudsman steps in and leans on the organisation, and you'll get a resolution within two weeks usually, four if they try and play hardball with the department... Which is a bad idea.
The next contact you'll get is the organisation apologising and trying to fix the issue, because if they don't do it to your satisfaction there are serious threats they have to deal with.
The org is required to pay for parts, labour and any required shipping. And you don't have to deal with the org directly - it's whoever you purchased from.
It's a painless process here, and means you don't have to deal with the stress of someone like Apple refusing to help you. At the first sign of "no we're not helping the way we should", fire an email and sit back and let the Ombudsman handle it for you.
https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/24/iphone-4-4s-5-power-but...
They can even be forgiven for having a systemic hardware issue that only becomes apparent once you have millions of devices out there. The keyboard issue is different. They knew they had an issue when they released the 12” MacBook but they kept introducing new models with the same issue. They could have easily just done a speed bump and kept the 2015 design. No one was clamoring for USB C or the Touch Bar.
Even though I think AntennaGate was overblown and they did keep selling the GSM iPhone 4 with no changes, they did make changes to the design nine months later for the CDMA iPhone 4.
A magic fairy doesn't instantly swap out the defective phone with a good one (and transfer all the files) the instant the problem occurs.
Some people are in countries with no Apple stores, some people are using it as a camera on a week-long backpacking trip in the middle of nowhere. Some people have families and jobs they have to tend to and don't want to waste what little precious freetime they have on this BS, etc.
Edit: and not everyone in the U.S. who has free time, lives near an Apple Store or can get an appointment next day.
I used to not have responsibilities, and I wondered why everyone has a hard time with things. Now I have responsibilities and can see why.
As far as swapping out files. It literally is a matter of clicking “backup” on one phone and choosing to restore on another one.
No. It is not.
Please tap "backup" on my dead phone. Please tap "backup" on my working phone when I have no computer or Internet to back it up to.
The last time it was plugged into a wall outlet, in an area with no Internet coverage? Or what about that irreplaceable photo I just took since the last time I plugged it into my computer, that I need right now and can't access until my phone is fixed?
Now we're just nitpicking each other. Hopefully you can at least see that they aren't magical devices that will solve everyone's problems. They do break, and like with any device that breaks, it can be a real inconvience for its user.
Maybe Apple shipped faulty switches knowingly. But they're also an awfully big juicy target for less scrupulous lawyers.
Tim Cook. His time is up, Apple needs new leadership so they can move past their Ballmer era
There is no next iPhone type product on the horizon. The smart phone already has 66% penetration in the world. Anything that Apple introduces is going to pale in comparison.
Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if even the Apple Watch isn’t more successful than any other consumer electronics besides the smart phone and the PC. If you define success in terms of profitability.
I get it, Apple is in their Ballmer era, making tons of money so no one is allowed to argue. But it doesn't 'just work' anymore. They've fallen from grace, which admittedly is hard because they were so good its hard to always move upward. But they are in stagnation and a little embarrassment now. Tell me these keyboards are awesome? The touchbar useful. The battery life in exchange for thinness amazing.
Exactly what area should they invest in that could make even a 10% difference in their revenue? What technology do you see in the foreseeable future that will be even a fifth of the size of the phone market?
If it were that easy to find the next electronic device that would have 66% world wide penetration who do you propose is the person to find it?
People were clamoring for an iPod + phone for years before the iPhone came out. What electronic device are people clamoring for now?
Of course its not easy, but I would hope that the CEO of one of the most valuable companies on earth would have that kind of foresight and skill. That's what he is there for, or to hire people that can do that. They're not and that's my point. Time for some significant changes at the helm.
> People were clamoring for an iPod + phone for years before the iPhone came out. What electronic device are people clamoring for now?
These devices were already out before the iPhone, the iPhone was just more polished, and the ability to buy from iTunes was huge. This is where Jobs deserves his credit, not for inventing a device that was a phone, camera and music player in one, but for making it a good experience. These new MBP's are a horrible experience.
Seeing that the Tesla is neither profitable nor ubiquitous- how do you define it as a “success”?
Some of the current/recent failures that come to mind:
- The MacBook keyboard issues discussed here
- The MacPro disaster (thermal design issues -> no real update since almost six years)
- The The MBP 2018 thermal design issues
- The MBP „Flexgate“ (display connector design flaw)
- The AirPower debacle
- The iPad Pro 3rd gen. „Bendgate“
Maybe if the head of engineering had had another 6 months to test the keyboard design properly he could have concluded that it wasn't technically feasible. But at the time there was a lot of pressure to release a redesign of the MBP and probably the design of the case was already decided. In the end Apple wasn't able to make a proper keyboard to accommodate the specs but maybe it was too late to go back to the drawing board.
I'm speculating of course, but I very much doubt Apple are complete idiots. It's more probable that some circumstances forced them to release the redesign. It was a mistake of course, they should have only updated the specs of the 2015 model, maybe adding a TB3 port. But you know, hindsight is 20/20.
I imagine Apple has been working on a redesign with a new keyboard, but these things take a couple of years. Specially when the Mac is only 10% of Apple's revenue.
This feels like something Google would do: Take something that's perfectly functional, change it entirely, remove features, make it less functional, have it be buggy as hell, then release it while deprecating the old one. Now, sell it as an innovative new feature.
In short: the keyboard redesign does not appear to have any real reason behind it, and it's essentially change for the sake of change.
Everyone was happy with the Mac Pro towers, a lot of people still use them today. The trashcan design IMO was more of an engineering/design statement at solving a self imposed problem rather than an existing one.
So, if rumors are to be believed, Apple is making a 180 on the new Mac Pro. Let's hope in a year or two we will have a new MBP with a good keyboard.
Tim: Hey X, I appreciate the hard work you're doing. But I've been busy with other meetings and slagging off Zuckerberg again. LOL. Why don't you touch base with Jony Ive and see if you two can't come up with something?
This is the same type of corporate structural flaw as Boeing has, just without the loss of life for Apple. They needed to sell the plane without re-certifying, so the management demands some poor engineers work around it while having their hands tied behind their back.
And the discussion about the quote on HN
There is a role for engineering to adjust the vision when necessary to comport with reality. It's not clear that was an issue with these keyboards as it's not clear that anyone knew up front that the butterfly mechanism would have these problems.
It's worth remembering that when Apple launched this keyboard, they didn't just say it's thin, they touted the engineering that went into it. I really, really doubt that this was a situation where the engineering team was banging the problem gong and was overruled. I know that's a popular way of thinking here on HN but I need at least some evidence to believe it.
This looks more like well-intentioned innovation that has just not worked out as well as they hoped, which happens sometimes, even with competent engineers. It's why Apple keeps such cash reserves on hand, so they can try new things and survive the ones that don't work out. Thankfully in this case, laptop keyboards are not life and death products.
(Having said that, I think some of those issues are somewhat overstated. The keyboard is a real issue; the Mac Pro's thermal corner is a real issue, but it's one we have solid evidence is being addressed by both the forthcoming Mac Pro and the already-existing iMac Pro; AirPower is a debacle, but I don't know if that's really his purview; the rest...eh. I'm not saying they're not real, but I don't know how widespread they are as real issues. But with the exception of AirPower and the Mac Pro, all the issues you listed would probably have literally been solved by making everything 1mm thicker.)
The AirPower debacle was anything but. They noticed they had an unfixable design problem and cancelled the project. The alternative would have been something similar to the Samsung/Galaxy Fold issue. Shipping a bad product.
Even the Mac Pro not being updated was halfway because they thought the IMac Pro bad external GPUs was the answer. Honestly, for most people it could be and has gotten great review. They had a change of heart.
Nope, there's another alternative: announce it when it's sitting in the backroom of every Apple store, like back in the old days. I'm sure Apple has their reasons for not doing that much anymore, but it would have avoided this very issue.
I'm not sure "debacle" is the right word for a product they announced, and then later decided they couldn't make, and so cancelled. There were no physical copies out there, no consumers wasted money on it, it was just... a cancelled product.
"This is the clearest expression of our vision of the future of personal computing, a simple multitouch piece of glass that instantly transforms into anything you want it to be."
So in their quest to shepherd users towards this vision, they've made design concessions which have hurt their existing users.
1 year ago i tried to fix it myself, broke the space bar crimps on 6 month old mbp15, and they told me because i tried to fix it myself i have to pay 500E for the repair. keep in mind i make my own keyboards, i did not even think i will not be capable to remove a bread crumb from under the space bar.
few months ago I sold all my apple stuff, and have never been happier https://txt.black/~jack/bye-apple.txt
After being Mac exclusive since early 2000s, and having spent an ungodly amount of money on their gear over the years.
They have a problem, and my patience is gone. No interest in a new Mac, and I can see myself leaving their ecosystem entirely now that the macOS cord is cut.
It's said that design is the art of compromise and that perfection is the enemy of the good. Unfortunately, Apple seems to have largely forgotten this. The 12" Macbook was a perfect example of this: in the quest for thinness, it was simply too much compromise.
The 13" Macbook Air (2011+) was, to me, basically a perfect laptop. Powerful enough for most needs, light enough for most needs and not too expensive. I feel completely differently if a $1000 laptop dies or is lost or stolen vs a $4000 laptop.
The USB-C debacle is another example of this. Instead of a laptop that does basically everything you now need to carry a dock or dongle or set of cables instead. How does this make sense? And let's not forget that we lost MagSafe with this too.
Sometimes I just want to throw my Macbook out the window.
I don’t know if this future will actually happen but would be nice.
Losing MagSafe is a bummer though.
The number of times I needed (or be willing to, random USB keys just don’t get to touch my computer) to plug in a foreign device during the last three years (even before I was provided a new MBP three months ago) is exactly zero.
Maybe Apple made a compromise. But if other companies can build the same laptop without compromise Apple must do better.
[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/lenovo-laptop-quality-cont...
You can always get a bad device. Happened to me with a faulty MacBook Display too. What matters in this case is the service contract you have with the manufacturer. And some companies have stellar service if you pay for it.
I had an X1 Carbon for work and when I used it on my lap the keyboard would randomly stop working. I realized this was because it didn't work if the laptop was only supported on the back part.
To each his own. (BTW you can get MagSafe clips for USB-C, which is a testament to this standard’s modularity)
If you're really intent on it, Griffin sells a MagSafe USB-C adapter - https://griffintechnology.com/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power...
I was once a big evangelist for Apple laptops. Now I tell people to get something else unless they're absolutely tied to macOS. I'll definitely be taking a very hard look at other, non Apple options when this guy gives up the ghost.
Desktops are solved, we don't need a savior for desktops because the modularity allows us to combine the best parts from various manufacturers.
We need a savior for laptops where the keyboard, mouse, screen, and components are all embedded, and there's no way to separate them.
I consider the iMac a convenient machine but it's a bit like buying a tv with a vcr built in and a keurig machine built-in too.
1. Thermals. Apple prioritized silence over performance. So they like to run cpus at high temperatures and start fans only than it is absolute necessary. It limits cpu clocks and performance. And although it has great cooling solution it worse than it could be that if it was just standard desktop. And it uses intel cpus that are pretty hot because they use older technology node.
2. CUDA. There are no nvidia support for Mojave if i am not mistaken. So there isn't support for CUDA. It should make some stuff very hard or impossible. For example ML training.
3. Price. It is very expensive. Hackintosh build including great monitor with intel + amd gpus will be twice as cheap.
I've been super happy with mine since last fall, and just this week, upgraded the 8GB of ram to 32GB myself, took a whole 15 mins to insert it and put everything back together.
MagSafe has to have been one of the best ideas in all of personal computing, and now they've just completely abandoned it. The least Apple could do is give up their patents on it; if they're not going to use it, at least let someone else try their hand at it. It's a total pipe-dream, but wouldn't it be great if the next USB standard mandated detachable connectors? It would never happen because of cost concerns, but a man can dream.
Tradeoffs.
I think you need to put it in perspective. The MacBook Retina was just like the first MacBook Air, it wasn't the best or good enough when it launched but It was designed with technology coming soon in the next 2 years, the promise of Intel 10nm in mind and WiFi 6 / 802.11ax. Both were suppose to come in 2016 / 2017. The 10nm, and its subsequent 7nm CPU would give Quad Core Intel CPU in a fanless design that is as powerful as a 2014 Quad Core MacBook Pro. And 802.11ax, 802.11ad or 802.11ay in the 60Ghz. The first would finally give Gigabit Ethernet speed in a wireless environment the 2nd ones would allow Wireless Transfer in dozens of Gbps within direct line of sight. For Macbook's target audience, those computation power was more than enough.
Fast forward to now, not only Intel wont have 10nm ULP CPU in massive quantities by end of 2019, it is likely not even the same 10nm as it was originally scheduled / promised in pre 2015 meetings. WiFi 6 / 802.11ax has been met with delays after delays to the point the Working Group literally force their way out push for commercial roll out. Last time I checked their meeting notes it still has thousand of issues unresolved. Much more than all the previous Draft WiFi standards.
One theory I have, was that Apple could not afford to anger, complain or make any signs of hardballing in their Mac department as they have a much bigger grand plan, to work with Intel together on the iPhone Modem and attack the Qualcomm business model. Since they have to decide their iPhone 7 Modem in Summer 2015, the thoughts and grand plan must have happen earlier, some evidence suggest this started in 2014 as it was shown in the case between Qualcomm and Apple.
And it was one reason I suggest switching to ARM on Mac doesn't make sense because Apple relies too much on Intel's Modem on its iPhone. And the iPhone business is the bread and butter of Apple. Now that everything has been settled I strongly believe Apple Mac will announced their ARM move within 30 months. But this is another topic for discussion.
I blame computer tech journalists and reviewers that give stars for thinness.
It's a metric, a stupid and an easy one to measure.
To make an engineering statement?
I don't know, in both cases it was a total disaster.
edit: apple keynotes piss me off because they seem to only care about making sexy flagship stores in cities that already have stores just brag about how awesome they are. All I need is a normal store in a mall where I can buy stuff and have it fixed in a reasonable time with reasonably competent staff. Just makes it seem they're pivoting into a luxury brand instead of a technology brand /rant from a Mac user for 29 years
My only option is the "apple-approved" is the local Staples. Staples!?
Seriously, I could deal with a laptop that is 3mm thicker.
Soon to make laptops .5mm thinner, the macbooks will probably have touchscreens keyboards instead of physical ones.
More recently I just started taking my ThinkPad.
I have had 3 broken keys so far. Apple replaced one key, right in shop. I replaced one out of my own pocket. And the other just broke last week.
I hate this keyboard so much - I miss my 2012 Macbook Pro.
The keys coming completely off when you turn the laptop over is ideal because the Genius can't really argue that one. You can cause this failure just by habitually pressing on the bottom portion of a key. For me, it's always the T key first.
But god forbid you only have a problem with the double-fires which doesn't seem to present if you just hammer one key 20 times (which they do in shop).
I've had the entire front panel replaced for free now twice (so, includes a new battery as well). And I've received my fixed laptop in the mail after a one day wait which is a spectacular experience if it weren't for such a debacle. But I'm nervous about the keyboard repair program ending once my laptop is three years old.
They said, no problem, we believe you, and replaced the keyboard anyway.
/s
Customer with LTV of almost six figures deciding to walk, but they won’t care, and don’t realise their moat is crumbling with everyone like me who decides it’s just a little too expensive and some of the qualities that made up for it in the past are no longer there.
I'm a vi user. I thought that maybe with a few months of just trusting the location on the touch bar that I'd get used to it. After all that 'training' I can land on the key about 90% of the time, which is about 9.9999% not close enough. And certainly I cannot consistently land on it with any other finger than the left ring finger when coming directly from the home row. My hands aren't always consistently on the home row, so that's also a problem.
I have come to like the touchbar. But the Esc key needs to be promoted to a real key. Tactile response matters.
The caps lock location is a superior place to put the escape key anyways.
There is 1 Apple Store in all the country in a fancy suburb of Mexico City (Santa Fe). Even if you live in Mexico City it might take you 1-2 hours to get there depending on traffic.
Otherwise there are a couple of authorized resellers (iShop, Compudabo, etc) that also give official tech support. It's a real disgrace. I know colleagues that have faulty keyboards and these authorized services have refused to repair the keyboard with the excuse that they cannot reproduce the issue.
Or is there something inherent to the design that makes them prone to this issue that can't be fixed?
only thing is, my substitute thinkpad x230 with (stripped down) linux mint reminded me how a good computer (& keyboard) can really feel, so i will prop. use that one for coding, and the mac retina display one for netflix & keynote.
1. they’re crazy thick. i travel a lot, and i need good cpu and ram and very light, very thin laptops. something like the huawei, or any of the macbook pros.
2. macos. because linux is still a drag.
And yes, I need Word to work.
Linux might be ok if its nvidia drivers weren’t so flaky, its Broadcom wireless drivers didn’t break with random system updates, and its app ecosystem put a bigger emphasis on high quality UX and made up its mind about UI conventions, but I don’t see any of that improving any time soon…
My 2016 MacBook Pro has the best keyboard I've ever used in my life. It is a joy to type on. Of all the things that needed "improving" in my laptop, the keyboard would have been dead last.
Hell, if they were still selling 2016 MPBs today with the exact same specs, I'd take that over a 2018 one.
"MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014)"
I guess I've had it longer than I realized! Still holding on to it desperately hoping Apple ships a new MacBook with a fixed keyboard before this one dies.
This is basically my last personal macbook, it's just not worth the money for repairs and hassle.
https://ifixit.org/blog/13979/apples-2018-macbook-pros-attem...
Ya know because to responsibility == liability == lower revenues.
I am really alone???
Are others commenters all dissatisfied customers or just ranters who don’t work on macOS anyway ? Very curious...
The longer you let a boil like this fester, the more painful it's going to be when you finally lance it.
I'd previously tried out someone else's 2016 MacBook Pro with the first generation butterfly keyboard. I actually immediately liked the new keyboard and knew I'd get used to it almost immediately if I ever switched.
10 days into my 2018 MacBook Air ownership, I started experiencing "sticky" keys with characters repeating themselves and/or not registering. This was on a brand new computer that had always remained closed when not in use and hadn't even moved from my desk.
Luckily, I was within the 14-day return period and I was able to walk into an Apple store and swap out the defective unit for another new MBA that (so far) doesn't have the sticky key issue.
I am now close to the end of the return period for my second MBA and I live in fear that the issue will present itself and I'll need to be without my computer while some Genius Bar employee tears apart my brand new $2,000 laptop and follows some mitigation procedure that is not guaranteed to last long.
I believe Apple has the resources to make this keyboard mechanism work but has not allocated those resources appropriately.
Older MacBook Airs are excellent machines.
Stop fixing stuff that isn’t broken.
Would you feel differently had this problem happened to you before they instituted this policy and had to waste your own time and money repairing their problem?
Personally I'm disappointed in Apple and know they can do better. The proof is my 2012 MBP sitting right here on my desk.