Drivers group plans work stoppage at Uber, Lyft in NYC
fox5ny.com
fox5ny.com
Of course, if the drivers feel exploited enough to form a union in the first place, who are we to say they're wrong? They already know going in that it's likely to be a black mark against them, yet they're doing it anyways. I personally don't live in or visit NY, and don't hire out Uber or Lyft vehicles; so all I really can do is wish them the best, and hope that it turns out in their favor.
Does anyone actually fall for this other than those who are paid to?
I have no expectation that a low paid worker will exist at any time for me. As far as I'm concerned the fact the local supermarket, uber, takeaway, etc keep running is magic. It's thoroughly in the realm of a 'bonus', it's something I don't expect to be able to rely on (even if historically I've always been able to).
They don't actually need any of that. All they have to do is to keep using basically the same pricing algorithm they already do.
If a bunch of drivers go on strike then any of the remaining ones automatically get paid more because the supply is lower (surge pricing). The higher pay attracts new drivers, or gets the ones who only drive during surge pricing to come out and work full shifts as long as the good money is there.
This is basically the same result for the company as conceding to the drivers' demands, except that it ends as soon as the striking drivers give up and reenter the labor pool.
The only way to get consistently higher wages is to maintain the higher fares and correspondingly the lower demand for drivers. In other words, some of the drivers have to stop working. Striking is just feigning solidarity as you hope it's somebody else who gets booted out of the job so you can earn more.
The only way drivers are going to get paid more is for enough of them to permanently stop accepting lower fares. But the trade off never actually goes away -- do you want higher fares or more hours? It can't be both unless some people stop driving, and if not enough other people quit the person who quits has to be you.
The drivers in NYC are striking for greater job security, not higher wages.
The drivers not in NYC are striking for the guaranteed minimum wage that the drivers in NYC are guaranteed by law.
And what happens when the company only has enough customers to provide that to 400 drivers when there are 500 drivers on strike?
> The drivers not in NYC are striking for the guaranteed minimum wage that the drivers in NYC are guaranteed by law.
Which they can already have by just not accepting fares lower than that.
They downsize or pass the cost to the consumer, just like always. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do.
The problem is everybody thinks they're going to be the one who gets "more work" and not the one who gets the axe.
That said, no, the company will not increase wages and add job security to the same extent with an external artificial decrease in driver supply. They'll do it in order to attract more workers and approach an equilibrium where wages and drivers meet, but if you artificially manipulate it without spelling these out it doesn't actually reach the same level.
At the end of the day, we as a society (rightly) demand a minimum standard of living for everyone, and we collectively pay for that one way or the other. Either we pay taxes to fund a welfare state, or we pay inflated prices for goods and services to maintain wage floors. I'd argue that paying taxes for welfare is more progressive, as the burden falls on richer people. Paying inflated prices for goods and services is regressive as it's a burden that falls equally on the rich and the poor.
What we're clearly seeing is a well functioning market driving down the cost of driver labor to the minimum possible price. This is good for consumers, since the good/service is now accessible to people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. If the problem is that some of these drivers aren't making enough to survive, then wouldn't a more optimum solution be to simply give them a little bit of money?
Of course! Why should the government provide health insurance? Doing so allows employers to shirk their responsibility to provide health insurance to their workers. I think we'd both agree that government-run health insurance obviating the need for businesses to provide their employees health insurance is neither perverted nor unacceptable. Why not then apply the same thinking to the concept of wages in general?
At the end of the day, we agree as a society that there's a minimum standard of living that everyone ought to enjoy, and welfare is our way of ensuring that. That there are some professions (like rideshare drivers) in which the pay is too low to maintain a minimum standard of living sounds like a welfare problem. And remember, society would be subsidizing Uber/Lyft via wage floors anyway, they will continue to exist (albeit only available to richer consumers), but the rich and the poor pay equally to maintain a minimum standard of living for drivers, making it function like a regressive tax.
Also keep in mind that Uber's margins are razor-thin as things currently stand, since there is effective competition in Lyft et al.
One solution passes the cost onto users of ALL services (minimum wage would apply to all labor), the other passes it onto taxpayers, who ostensibly use those same services (unless you’re somehow off the grid). The latter proportionally divides the burden by socioeconomic status (progressive taxation).
In practice, nearly everyone uses services that employ humans, right?
I haven't studied this in too long to put together a tight response to your comments - food for thought for me, gotta crack back open some books.
Off the top of my head, I'd say that it's likely that increases in minimum wage resulted in a greater increase in economic performance than increases in welfare distribution, but I'm not certain and I'd have to look back into it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit#Impac...
Which they can already have by just not accepting fares lower than that.
Drivers don't set fares; the regulator does.This makes the assumption that the payment, fare, and employment mechanisms are incapable of being changed to provide for greater pay and/or job security for Uber and Lyft employees (drivers, specifically).
What magic trick are you proposing that causes compensation to increase without increasing prices (and thereby lowering demand), when the company's margins are already low? The money has to come from somewhere.
Perhaps it will cost more, but if it raises the minimum lifestyle of my fellow humans (as opposed to lining investor's pockets), I'm personally OK with that.
Obviously the problem then is that they wouldn't get many volunteers, but forcing people out of their jobs involuntarily is not really what anybody wants -- especially when it's them.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/09/nyregion/driving-a-taxi-d...
I don't agree. Start by grouping together as a collective, then lobby for employee status instead of contractor status.
Striking isn't feigning solidarity just because there are scabs out there. It's acting in solidarity in the hopes that everyone will do it with you, so that you all can get better conditions.
So, they would have to pay a much lower wage to full employees. Benefits? Forget about it. Or they could charge a lot more, I guess. That would reduce demand for their services, meaning they wouldn't need as many employees. They lay off a bunch of people, and we wind up in exactly the same state as AnthonyMouse proposed -- fewer people driving.
That's the solution they need to follow, though it's probably going to take some badly needed regulation to get there.
If there is another job that pays more then the minimum wage does nothing, you can take the other job instead regardless. If there isn't, i.e. you're one of the drivers who would become unemployed, are you really worse off with slightly less money than zero money whatsoever? How does that help you?
For example, when major employers are large inefficient bureaucracies with high margins, raising the minimum wage doesn't result in those entities laying off many if any workers, because they can just eat the cost and keep going as if nothing changed.
But when the employers are lean and operate in markets with high elasticity of demand, as in this case, it does directly result in unemployment. Because there is no way to pay more without charging more, but charging more reduces demand.
Notice that this is another way of saying that minimum wage has more negative impact on efficient companies than inefficient ones, which I take as another argument against it.
Again, this sounds like a welfare problem, because if we instead redistribute money to these folks (expand EITC and even remove the employment requirement), then they have the leverage necessary to negotiate better pay and better conditions. Such workers can walk away from unsafe working conditions without worrying about being able to feed themselves. Higher paid workers do this all the time, and this feeds into the market price for certain labor.
Most of those laws are not very useful, because the practice was already on its way out, but also not very harmful, because the practice was already on its way out. (Notice that there is also a major distinction between "worker protections" which workers can generally negotiate for themselves, and laws pricing externalities like pollution, which really do need to be there to keep companies from doing that.)
The problem in this case is that paying low wages isn't actually universally harmful. In many cases, prohibiting employees from working for lower wages only prohibits them from working at all, because no one will hire them for more than that. Moreover, the benefit is quite attenuated because the difference for the workers who did receive higher wages is still not dramatically more than they would be paid in the alternative, and even they are a very small percentage of overall workers, the large majority of which make more than minimum wage to begin with.
It's not clear that giving a small raise to a small group of people is actually worth causing another group of people to lose their jobs, while raising the prices that everyone has to pay. Particularly when there are alternatives for subsidizing compensation that spread the cost more evenly instead of concentrating it on the exact people you don't really want to tax in general.
Compare this to a law requiring saws to have blade guards on them, which costs hardly anything and has no apparent major negative consequences at all to anyone.
At the end of the day, we as a society (rightly) demand a minimum standard of living for everyone, and we collectively pay for that one way or the other. Either we pay taxes to fund a welfare state, or we pay inflated prices for goods and services to maintain wage floors. I'd argue that paying taxes for welfare is more progressive, as the burden falls on richer people. Paying inflated prices for goods and services is regressive as it's a burden that falls equally on the rich and the poor.
What we're clearly seeing is a well functioning market driving down the cost of driver labor to the minimum possible price (ignoring for a moment the need to make sure externalities are included in the price via congestion taxes). This is good for consumers, since the good/service is now accessible to people lower on the socioeconomic ladder. If the problem is that some of these drivers aren't making enough to survive, then wouldn't a more optimum solution be to simply give them a little bit of money?
I don't, but I think it's more politically achievable and a lot more optimal than the status quo.
> What we're clearly seeing is a well functioning market driving down the cost of driver labor to the minimum possible price ....This is good for consumers....If the problem is that some of these drivers aren't making enough to survive, then wouldn't a more optimum solution be to simply give them a little bit of money?
One concern I have with ideas like that is the policy could end up just being a subsidy to business owners, since they could turn around and pocket much of their existing labor costs (at least for low-wage workers) by passing that responsibility to the government.
They only get to pocket the money if they lack effective competition. Uber can't charge higher fares while paying lower wages and not expect Lyft or someone else to eat their lunch.
That's not necessarily true, EITC is an existing program. "Increase EITC" requires just as much political will as "Increase the minimum wage".
> One concern I have with ideas like that is the policy could end up just being a subsidy to business owners, since they could turn around and pocket much of their existing labor costs (at least for low-wage workers) by passing that responsibility to the government.
You could apply this argument against any form of welfare. Why should the government provide health insurance? Doing so allows employers to shirk their responsibility to provide health insurance to their workers. At the end of the day, we agree as a society that there's a minimum standard of living that everyone ought to enjoy, and welfare is our way of ensuring that. That there are some professions (like rideshare drivers) in which the pay is too low to maintain a minimum standard of living sounds like a welfare problem.
Only welfare that you can collect while employed. I personally feel that the welfare costs incurred by any employed person should be billed back to their employer (except in some special cases like otherwise unemployable disabled people).
> That there are some professions (like rideshare drivers) in which the pay is too low to maintain a minimum standard of living sounds like a welfare problem.
It is, though I think welfare solutions become taxation problems, and the people who should pay the most tax also those who are most sophisticated at avoiding it.
You're right, and I'd personally advocate for removing the employment requirement for the EITC (closer to a negative income tax or even a UBI), but expanding the EITC is more politically tenable in the near term, and becomes a stepping stone to achieve the latter.
> the people who should pay the most tax also those who are most sophisticated at avoiding it
Are you suggesting that welfare and progressive taxation don't work? Or are you arguing that regressive taxes are more optimum/more effective?
We're not talking about regressive taxes, but the effects of regulation on prices. My view on this narrow slice of policy is that it's better that private employers bear the full cost of supporting an employee at a reasonable standard of living. Welfare's fine for those who are unemployed or disabled (and maybe those who are in a time-limited transition period), but it shouldn't be a supplement to wages except in limited cases.
But employers just pass that cost onto the consumer. This results in, in effect, a regressive tax, because these higher prices are paid by the rich and the poor alike.
In contrast, using welfare to ensure that these workers don't go hungry ensures that the workers essentially end up with the same amount of money as they would have with the wage floor, but having the rich pay for it disproportionately (via progressive income/capital gains taxes).
The other option would be a UBI, which would still remove any argument for minimum compensation but then wouldn't be conditional on working.
> It is, though I think welfare solutions become taxation problems, and the people who should pay the most tax also those who are most sophisticated at avoiding it.
That's a separate problem. If you have a minimum wage it ends up being paid mostly by the poor through higher prices. If you have a UBI or similar, the rich may not be paying the 35% they're "supposed" to pay, but the 15% or so they actually pay sure is a lot more than the almost nothing they pay in the alternative.
Also, there are pretty well known solutions to making international corporations pay for stuff, like replacing corporate income tax with VAT or DBCFT.
Not regressive if the poor are earning more because of a widely deployed wage floor (with obvious caveats).
It's a leaky system because the unemployed (as well as minors and retirees) don't benefit from this and still end up paying higher prices. Wouldn't it be more effective (not to mention simpler) to let the market drive down the cost of labor to its minimum possible price, and then letting richer people subsidize poorer people through progressive taxation and redistributive welfare?
Until the US becomes a member of the EU... Then it would be OK to tax the US poor, because that would be progressive taxation (because the US poor are much richer than the EU poor, tax the "wealthy" US citizens to pay the poor EU citizens?)
In the (perhaps distant) future, all goods and services are provided by automation and machinery, and humans wouldn’t work. All wages would essentially be zero by then.
That's kinda the point of giving them such a bad name (scabs).
Edit: Scab->strikebreaker
Whether monopolies are bad or not is somewhat subjective, but the impact of them is not. Most basically, monopolies lead to price increases.
I am confused by this article. Drivers already have a (relatively high) minimum wage. Now they want job security according to the article? What would that look like given that drivers can work anytime they want?
Also, why did Lyft comment on the wage if that is not what drivers are demanding?
B)The minimum wage is not high at all.
The minimum wage is necessary because driver's are responsible for all of the costs of maintaining their vehicles, gas, parking etc. Imagine if your pay as a programmer required you to also pay for your computer, the parts, the software, the electricity, renting a cubicle/desk/office to work at, etc.
This is not how you send a message. If you want people to listen you have to shut streets down!
re-confirming all the stats in their prospectus about the unstoppable good their rides to airports are, investors love it