China charts a path into European science

Do you have any data on how many of these “loans” are actually paid back in full and not defaulted on? Generally interested.

> Smaller, poorer countries are easier to bribe, coerce or just plain intimidate than say France or Germany.

Not to mention, many of those countries are already being bullied and coerced by France and Germany anyway, so they may see some international abuse as the lesser of two evils.

Now, if countries like Romania could get their act together and stop accepting the free outward movement of people who they've just paid to educate, maybe the equation changes.

this is a joke right? "every nation but mine.... (acts in its own self-interest and needs to be encircled should it try to expand)".

this is exceptional in it's dullness. you want to benefit all of humanity but also out-compete every other nation on earth- but i thought a nation was just an idea, or is it an individual? maximize individual freedom, but prevent the inevitable conflict, loss, suffering and death that freedom would bring about. think totalitarian governments are a systemic risk to world peace, but not your absolutist ideas which allow no room for compromise with a simple difference of opinion but create escalating tensions and threatening rhetoric. what are you suggesting? in order to save the chinese people from themselves you will bomb them, lend them paper to rebuilt and prop up a puppet government?

china needs new markets, because the chinese people demand it, through their production and consumption.

when you anchor your superstructure of belief on a fantasy, divorced from history, politics, and the state of the natural world with it's finite resources, no good decision dilemmas, and complex inter-dependencies your conclusions are crackpot lunacies. show me an individual, and you will show me a barbarian, a beast of burden, a machine. a human being is neither free nor undivided, the very process of existence requires division, sacrifice, and the reduction of freedom. when you say 'i want to be free' i hear 'do what i say', 'think like i do'. give me the freedom to be free of you. the tyrants and despots of history, always promising the sky and offering a shallow hole in the dirt.

a close reading of the 19th and 20th century would do you well. it was the sudden contraction of american banks lending to weimar germany brought about by an ill prepared and newly formed central bank that caused communist and reactionary forces to emerge and fight for europe. trade restrictions were placed on germany with the express goal to twist the iron glove to war, largely for the benefit of expanding american manufacturing, banking and business interests in the war-weary and destitute post-war period. china is peacefully doing 80 years later what the allies did by force and no regard for human life. why else were so many cities fire bombed and destroyed? what did the americans do in korea? vietnam? what are american forces doing in the middle east? borrow, bomb and build. freedom is the carrot, capital is the stick.

the guilty man sees his sins in the faces of others. the free world doesn't look so free anymore.

so lets get down to realities, you will escalate, china will defend, you will go bankrupt since you can't manufacture a working plane anymore and the world doesn't want to buy your debt, china will take your place in the northern hemisphere and you can go back to setting up banana republics in your backyard and liberating the other america from bad ideas. how is venezeula working out?

nb. this post is largely in jest, you present and therefore receive the treatment of a fool.

it's a scattershot approach. the size of china and it's appetite for growth means it invests everywhere, its concentrated wealth and power is being dispersed globally in order to throw as many seeds as possible and water the ones that seek to grow. they're in africa, south america, eurasia, se asia, oceania, western europe, the middle east. it's very similar to what japan and south korea did domestically with miracle recoveries in their respective post war periods - but on a completely global scale. you give everyone a chance, and reinforce the ones who take it with good faith, the bad self-prune themselves and behavior can now be correlated to outcome. never throw good money after bad, and always work out some deal when you get something in return for something.

china needs this to work, or it is facing a real crisis (constitutional, demographic, cultural) in the near future. the middle income trap leads to stagnation and possible revolution unless you can centralize population (it needs 100 tokyos) and largely flatten your wealth distribution before it happens, but avoiding it is preferential to dealing with its effects.

the idea that china is doing this alone is also a fantasy, in reality it's working within the global system of international lending and finance to open as many doors as possible to trade, growth, accelerated development and good outcomes for domestic populations. european and american funds can't get through the door fast enough to get behind chinese at scale manufacturing and development of the undeveloped parts of the world.

i think they will fail, but for largely unmentioned and unrelated reasons to the ones presently discussed. any system like china will risk total collapse around leadership changeover, and it needs more than 20 years to achieve new stability goals and at that moment - when xi dies - it requires a stable partner to secure the hand off, and at the rate of hysteria in america, two decades from now, i can see capricious opportunism on the part of a deflated western elite take over sound judgement and prudent long term thinking. the quiet horror of the thousands of kilometers of abandoned high speed rail like skeletal bones across the world as we enter some new global minimum is vividly in my mind as i think of the most likely outcomes.

You can actually gain a lot from investing in "poorer" Eastern European countries, like a lot of tech outsourcing occurs there because the intellecutual labour is much cheaper yet the quality of work is comparable to Western European standards.

A lot of products or scientific research can be made at a much cheaper price in East Europe and maybe even at a higher quality. The issue for Western European countries is that they don't need to and likely don't have the huge budget that China has to put into foreign investment. Also although China may seem like it is investing a lot, it's not much in terms of its budget so it seems much more affordable to China.

Also China is also investing in Western Europe as well, they are more or less doing a scattershot approach as can be seen by the German acquisition. Its probably just that Western Europe isn't as receptive and doesn't need as much.

It's not profitable because movement of skilled labor is free across whole EU.

If you've poor countries in EU then a company from rich EU country can easily buy large farmland or ship out dirty/sketchy industries (waste recycling companies who just set waste on fire) to poor countries. This way you can keep pollution away from your shores while buying the beneficail resources (like farmland) at cheap.

Resources go where money is. Now, resources can be either agriculture lands or skilled labor. If you expand the market by adding lots of poor countries to your free trade alliance, you'll notice that the rich countries get way more richer at faster rate than poor countries.

Think about an EU where every country is equally rich and has equally wealthy population.

Then buying large farmland in Romania will be cost as much as in Germany and what happens next? Romanian companies might also end up owning large lands in Germany.

How is that beneficial for rich members of EU to make poor ones richer? You end up losing country over your country's resources to foreign power.

China knows this and that's why they invest in poor countries to create a bigger market on favourable trade terms. Now, these terms don't even need to biased in favour of China if China deals with poor countries as the naturally China being richer will benefit from the effect outlined above.

So China doesn't need to be unfair to win and become rich while extracting resources from poor countries they invest in.

Is it good, bad or evil? Depends on how you think about other players like Sacadinavia and Western Europe. I don't know why we should treat China any different if I am a poor European country.