Apache is being forced into a Java Fork | Hacker News Reader

Apache is being forced into a Java Fork

zdnet.com

29 pointsGarbage17 comments

Let put some facts right

* Harmony is already a fork of java. But without the patent grant there is an unknown.

* ASF wanted to pass the TCK for the patent grant and wanted Oracle to get rid of the field of use related to the tck.

* Dalvik is using some of Harmony's code.

Oracle promised that "any" project could get the patent grant as long as you comply with the TCK, but you can only run the TCK if you agree to a restrictive license? Sounds pretty fishy to me.

Wasn't Dalvik found not to be using any of Harmony's code?

Dalvik uses no Apache Harmony code, the libraries you write against do

You don't know what a fork is.

In order for it to be a fork, something has to get forked from the parent ... like the source code, or the standard.

In this case it would be a fork from the standard. Without allowing the TCK to be used against harmony the project must be considered a different standard that may will diverge in the future.

Given the disappointment over closures and collection literals being delayed until java 8 there must be a temptation within the harmony camp to push ahead with these features and produce the version of java that many are clamoring for.

It would be dead in the water if forked from the "standard". Java plays in the enterprise space and they are pretty particular about that sort of thing.

I agree, the java community is generally extremely risk averse. This does however create a positive pressure towards such a fork. It seems very hypothetical at the moment but given that a fork were to receive backing from google I'm sure the enterprise community would be comfortable using it.

Eventually, the courts will get to decide how “open” an open-source project is when one company gets to call all the important shots.

This is why I don't see a fork sustainable. Hostilities have already been mounted. I think Oracle taints the entire concept of using the JVM for anything as far as Apache is concerned. The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology. I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now. Still maybe Apache would get something together that would allow it's libraries to operate on the LLVM while embracing a new language for future development. It's food for thought given that their is an imminent need to move beyond Oracle's reach.

> The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology.

GCJ would be what you're looking for here, I think. The critical question would be how badly, if at all, GCJ would be affected by an Oracle militantly pursuing perceived patent violators.

> languages have progressed beyond Java now

It's not about the language. It's about the collosal amount of libraries in the ecosystem.

I think and I could be totally wrong on this one, but I think that Oracle could construe the GCJ as appropriating their ideas and infringing on their patents. Moving to something like the LLVM would at least help distance Apache from that.

My point as far as languages go was not that the libraries are not worth it but if you have to go so far as moving all of them over too a wholly separate run-time, is it even worth it to continue Java the language or would it be better to just adopt Scala or some other language that incorporates modern features and make it compatible with the ported library set. I was really pondering if you go all that way, is it worth it to just go that last 1/10 of a mile, instead of trying to bring Java the language into the modern age.

I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now.

Isn't that basically what Google did with Android/Dalvik and are now being sued by Oracle for?

To be honest I don't know the details, but I though I remember hearing that it was more a case of doing the same thing as Microsoft, releasing a wholly incompatible product with Java at large, even the standard libraries where rendered incompatible. I don't know but I would imaging that you are completely within your right to make Java source code you write, compatible or incompatible with what you see fit.

I am not 100% sure of the case, but it seems like that was what the articles where saying when the Google suit was hot in the news. I will go back and see if I can find info on it.

EDIT: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Aug-13.html

This would explain why Google went through the trouble of making the Dalvik virtual machine explicitly incompatible with the existing Java virtual machine instructions.

yes it seems that the VM that Google used is as Microsoft's was incompatible with vanilla JVM instructions.

Harmony is an alternative to OpenJDK. There is no need to fork anything unless they want to merge in some UI code or something. Suing Apache seems very counterproductive imo.

I wrote a text about this earlier today if someone is interested. Not published here since it is kinda rantish.

http://labs.teppefall.com/2010/12/calling_oracles_sco_bluff....

Please enlighten me as I am not very clear about the impact of this. Why there are people saying Java is on its death path because of this? The way I see it this only strengthens OpenJDK, which 99.9% of the applications are already using.

The TCK puts restrictions on mobile and I believe server run-times. So basically, it can only be used for desktop development or JVM lite if you will. Given that Java desktop was DOA you can see the usefulness of accepting those restrictions. Oracle as made no secret of their intent to monetize the JVM, there are a good deal of developers that believe that you don't pay to play for technology as low level as a language and run-time. So they are naturally concerned about the manner in which it will be monetized. Looking at the field of use restriction it can serve as an indicator as to where that plan to monetize it. Further with their suite against Google in relation to Android, I bleive that it paints a pretty big bulls eye on where they plan to monetize it. That being said, I have used Java since it was first placed on the net for download, I have seen it fall behind other languages and never once though it was going to die. It had too an extensive of an entrenchment and library available. I personally do believe that this was the death shot and when (I like to think) level headed guys like me, who have always said well it is good enough, sure it not shinny but good enough, start to think that it was the death shot, then it may very well be so.

For me personally, if I where asked to throw my lot in with Apache or Oracle, it would be Apache, I use their technology every day, I do a project with Oracle technology (excluding the JVM now) maybe once a year. I think Oracle thinks the entrenchment is to great to overcome, for our sake I hope they are wrong.

Fortunately for myself, I was an assembly developer before I was a C developer before I was a Java developer. So my exit, should it become untenable is easy enough given that I am a freelancer. I don't have a significant technology infrastructure investment like product people have. I truly feel for you guys that do, I would be really worried if I where in your shoes.

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