"The suicides are the most spectacular side-effect of this harassement policy"
The burden of proof required here is extreme.
The burden of proof required here is extreme.
Also, it's questionable if there was in fact a 'rash of suicides':
France has a rate of suicide of 12.9 / 100K / year. [1]
France Telecom has 95 000 employees In France alone. [2]
Here's the title of the Telegraph article: "Why have 24 France Telecom workers killed themselves in the past 19 months?" [3]
Well, it would be expected that about 20.5 FT employees will commit suicide every 19 months or so, sadly.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A.
[3] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechno...
But that isn't what jumps out at me - to me the real issue is that if management pressure is so bad it is provoking suicides then there will be lots of evidence for it. Presumably the reason people are talking about it in newspaper articles is because they have seen evidence and are asking questions.
The stats you have quoted suggest the number of suicides is already above average. That, combined with evidence of a problem, is very likely what has triggered the conversation at all.
I've seen some angry workers, but generally all they want is more pay or to work with better conditions going forward. I'm not sure how many of them would bother trying to get managers imprisoned without good cause. I'd guess it would be about as rare as management policies being bad enough to cause suicides. The media might have wiped out a whole heap of nuance - so it isn't worth getting worked up over the case - but if lawsuits are flying then it is more likely than not that something went very visibly wrong.
Actually, the data frames the argument quite well, moreover, there's nary any way one is going to get better sampling.
" if management pressure is so bad it is provoking suicides then there will be lots of evidence for it"
It's incredulous to suggest that 'management is provoking suicides'. It is completely absurd.
When, in modern history do you suggest that this has ever happened? Ever?
Wouldn't people quit their jobs? Or get different jobs before resorting to 'death'?
We could all easily demonstrated working conditions elsewhere in the Western world where conditions are 'just as bad' - ergo, the logic of 'they were provoked into suicide' makes no sense whatsoever.
And FYI my data demonstrated that the number of suicides is well within normalized range. An variation of 20% in one year is going to be normal.
I meant it as "alleged side-effect".
Where are you going to get the comparable data?
How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this?
There are tons of Chinese factories, and others all over the world with considerably worse conditions wherein nobody is committing suicide. People living in ghettos don't even commit suicide at alarming rates.
'Suicide' is actually a contagious behaviour, when a child in a school commits suicide, often there are others. This we have some data for.
Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening.
While I think there's no doubt difficult work conditions are surely going to help to create 'conditions' for negative outcomes, I think 'causation' is going to be impossible to prove directly.
The other thing here is that people make choices in life, it's another stretch of responsibility for someone to assert that the company made or induced them into making these choices.
If Orange was skimping on safety gear, and we saw a spike in related accidents - then I think this is the 'statistical case' and we can show causation and direct responsibility. But suicide, although tragic, is a different scenario altogether.
>Where are you going to get the comparable data?
>How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this?
Is called epidemiology
>Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening.
Do you know many farmers?
edit - Apologies, the raised suicide rate reported for farmers in North America looks as though it may not be true in Canada - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200
Even this fairly level headed conversation, and the legal case, are likely to somewhat contribute to suicidal ideation through mere awareness.
Having spent some time in rural Ontario, I can say it imbues one with a sense that life is worth living. ;- )