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Comment by sandGorgon | Hacker News Reader

and we arent even close to peaking.

The biggest telcos in India havent even started content plays. Netflix just entered India.

And we still have HALF A BILLION people not on the internet. This is in an environment with constitutionally guaranteed fundamental rights to privacy (that cannot be reversed by the govt), a govt run mobile payments infrastructure that is literally a free Stripe+Paypal+Venmo+Alipay and perhaps the world's largest pool of software developers.

There are multiple large/successful venture funded startups in India started and run by non-citizen expatriates (incl women). English is pretty much the language of business and India-US/India-EU have excellent non-double taxation laws.

Healthcare is dirt cheap and very good.

Its a brilliant time to do a startup here.

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> govt run mobile payments infrastructure that is literally a free Stripe+Paypal+Venmo+Alipay

UPI or Unified Payments Interface. I cannot stress how innovative this payment mode is.

* No risk of fraud (can't approve a transaction without a PIN on your mobile) - fraud as in card cloning, malware infected websites running off with card details. Does not preclude social engineering where users fall into clever tricks.

* no privacy issues yet (money is directly debited from account without a mastercard/visa involved)

* anyone can make a UPI app (all banks have their own, Google Pay, Paytm, PhonePe etc)

* no cards to duplicate

* you can manage multiple VPAs on one account, so I can create different identities for different purposes all debiting money from one account.

Exceptions - UPI still doesn't support recurring payments or subscriptions and some other cases.

But as a regular consumer, I find plastic outdated. I've never used WeChat/AliPay so can't comment on that but the only time I have to use a credit card is when I have to pay international companies (DO, GSuite etc) in USD/EUR.

EDIT - expanded on kinds of fraud.

> no privacy issues yet (money is directly debited from account without a mastercard/visa involved)

Isn’t Aadhar (fingerprints + iris scan) needed to have a bank account? If yes, then it’s a bit disingenuous to say there are no privacy issues.

> No risk of fraud

A cursory search will show plenty of press articles re UPI fraud. For instance [1].

[1] https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/personal-finance/...

you don't need an aadhar card to open a bank account only a pan card(no biometrics) issued by tax dept, which you can link with your aadhar card by your own choice. The govt wants you to do this but the caanot force you as the supreme court has said.

According to the Supreme Court ruling, "the Aadhaar number must still be quoted to file income tax returns and apply for a personal account number (PAN)."[1]

[1] https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-india...

This is just one source but there's lot of others reporting the same thing. Do you have a citation that says otherwise?

I don't have a aadhar card yet and I don't intend to get one. I have a pan card but I had it made a few years ago. I am not aware if things have changed, I'll ask around tomorrow for ground information.

Avoid getting it for as long as you can hold out. If you’re not reliant on government subsidies, the only coercion now is to link it with PAN and also quote it in the tax returns.

If you can afford the penalty for late filing of tax returns, go for that. There are still several review petitions against last year’s verdict on Aadhaar. The Supreme Court, as usual, is delaying hearing those. Check out no2uid on Twitter, rethinkaadhaar.in and others.

>Isn’t Aadhar (fingerprints + iris scan) needed to have a bank account? If yes, then it’s a bit disingenuous to say there are no privacy issues.

Nopes. Govt tried really hard. Attorney General didn't really sound far from Facebook's primary lawyer. But Supreme Court shut it down.

>A cursory search will show plenty of press articles re UPI fraud. For instance [1].

I should expand that I meant technical fraud - your card being cloned on a PoS, or a malware infected website siphoning card details, lax controls by card issuers etc (Amex is notorious for approving payments with just the card number and CVV)

Stuff like this is hard on UPI BUT it is isn't idiot proof. You can't really make a system secure when the human victim willingly hands over information as was alluded by your link.

I believe Aadhar is mandatory if you're filing tax in India[1]. And the government earlier in the year passed a bill to undo some of the supreme court protections and facilitate sharing of Aadhar data with third parties[2].

So unless you're too poor to file taxes (or are not an Indian resident), bank accounts can always be linked to Aadhar, even if it happens via the PAN.

[1] https://qz.com/india/1351263/supreme-court-verdict-how-india...

[2] https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/jmxPkXXGWeEfiAsCsA1xnO/Opin...

Re Aadhar -- HN readers should note that IndiaStack (indiastack.org, very popular with VCs operating in India) relies a lot on Aadhar, so a lot of people in Indian Startups have a financial interest in not seeing the downsides of Aadhar.

You're moving goal posts.

Aadhar being necessary for tax filing !== Aadhar is mandatory for operating a bank account, claims which you made in previous posts.

Yes, going backwards government can indeed find your bank accounts because you might quote them on tax forms but having Aadhar is NOT necessary for operating a bank account. I have multiple accounts, none of which have been closed or service being denied for lack of an aadhar number.

>Re Aadhar -- HN readers should note that IndiaStack (indiastack.org, very popular with VCs operating in India) relies a lot on Aadhar, so a lot of people in Indian Startups have a financial interest in not seeing the downsides of Aadhar.

This is exaggerated. People can lead perfectly functional lives without quoting Aadhar to anybody except the taxman. You're pushing it.

Also I am pretty sure government can find all of your bank accounts without Aadhar, using a court order.

A huge criticism of Aadhar is that with Aadhar, a court order isn’t necessary. The Aadhar act allows any lookup authorized by mid level bureaucrats.

Also, given that a lot of Aadhar data has leaked (even the biometrics have leaked in some states[2]) and given the lack of privacy legislation in India, it’s trivial for private entities, including scammers, to know your bank accounts.

Wide availability of bank account info has enabled a number of social engineering attacks[1].

Separately UPI remains vulnerable to SIM cloning as the phone number is crucial to UPI identity.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?&hl=en&q=upi+fraud+in+india

[2] https://medium.com/karana/gujarat-biometric-leak-and-registe...

You should check the Aadhaar amendments bill (previously pushed as an ordinance). The government is pushing for Aadhaar linkage on different fronts again, and is also making private access available and easy. One of the places where linkage is being proposed (as it was in the past) is for driving licenses and vehicle registrations.

See this recent opinion piece. [1]

[1]: https://thewire.in/law/aadhaar-rbi-supreme-court-uidai

Even seen the balance sheets of telcos in India. They are drowning in it and very soon it would become unserviceable. In NPA (non performing assets) India is among top 5 in the world and recently beat Italy on this dubious distinction. When all government owned banks write off this money, it is taxpayers who will be footing the bill.

> Healthcare is dirt cheap and very good.

That's news to me because afaik it is damn expensive for the income level in India.

> This is in an environment with constitutionally guaranteed fundamental rights to privacy (that cannot be reversed by the govt)

There is no data privacy law in India as yet. The one drafted last year has many issues. Saying that the government cannot reverse it is naive. The government can make laws that side with corporates and itself, without providing adequate protections for citizens.

The Aadhaar linkage and re-enablement for use by private companies in contravention to the Supreme Court verdict is another sign that the government can, and will, do what it wants. The Supreme Court is unfortunately not proactive in issues that have the potential to affect all the people in the country.

>> constitutionally guaranteed fundamental rights to privacy

Considering nearly everyone (who isn't an ARPU "deadbeat") is on WhatsApp I would think the ruling doesn't matter one way or another because you don't have much privacy left anyway.

Plus, if the govt wants the scoop on anyone's private life, they will just ask Facebook to hand it over or else.... (ban WhatsApp, ban Instagram, block approval for cryptocurrency projects, harden data storage rules and whatever else a government can do to threaten a corporation).

no.

in india, the right to privacy was upheld by the constitutional bench of the supreme court to be a fundamental human right.

This triggered a multi-billion dollar reversal of the Aadhaar biometric social-security id project.

the govt cannot do this without due judicial process even if it tries to create a law. we have stronger privacy protections than the US.

Is this true in states where AFSPA applies?

> Netflix just entered India

Checkout https://www.justwatch.com/in to see the content providers in India. Last time I checked we had less streaming services than Germany!

I thought I recall hearing someone say that cellphone plans and rates are much more reasonable there. That it's not uncommon for companies to actually compete to lower prices. Is that true?

I pay Rs150 ($2.16 USD - maybe can buy a hotdog at Costco with some spare change) per month (stress the Month.. ) and get 1.5 GB per day (yes, that's data per day) .

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