The teens who build the iPhones

No. Absolutely, and I apologise if that was ever apparent in what I said. China has a very worrying political system, certainly not one I can ever agree with. But that is not the topic of interest here... (it really isn't, as much as CNN wants it to be ;))

BUT the point I was making is there is no issue with teenagers working for a bit of cash. That is not an issue, except in China, right? So you say?

> There's a determined effort here to minimize the plight of people working factory jobs in third-world conditions. Because we don't want to feel guilty?

This is the only comment from the above that really hurts. In fact, and regulars here will know how I usually avoid this language, fuck the hell off. You seem to be trying to turn my comment into the thinking of "screw them, at least I have an iPhone".

Here's the question; what have you ever done the fuck for them (except talk)? (rant over, and I apologise)

> Our cultural relativism is a non-argument.

Nah, it's really not. I've been unbelievably lucky in my job to touch a number of brilliant and different cultures. And I like to think I am (or, better, have the privilege to be) able to appreciate just a little bit of their complexity. Yes, repression is terrible. In our eyes. And, yes, it is good to try and change the view of other cultures to understand our own view. But showing someone they are wrong is very different from telling them they are wrong.

I believe as strongly as you that, for example, repression of women is terrible. But I wouldn't walk in guns blazing with that ideal, that is the way wars begin. Instead, bring the ideal to the right people and without the zealotry, take the long view. And with luck when we quit this world we will have set in motion serious change. It takes power and dominance we can never again see (and, in fact have fought to remove) to change the entire world in one generation. Some of our forefathers fucked it up big time; and though they ended up with the right result it was not by their planning; let's learn from those misfires.

And I strongly encourage you to travel to these countries, learn their language and customs. And then come back here and sit on your high horse.

How do you think worker protections were won in "civilized" countries

I know. This, although you perhaps do not realise it, is your strongest argument. The way it was won was drastic action which encouraged change within the ruling elite (let's not delude ourselves there is one in every country). But it was won over time, regardless of the approach taken. The "problem" with the internet is that results feed back instantly. Will China ever be democratic and similar to our country; my thinking - yeh probably. But it will take time, a lot of time. Which sucks for our generation in China, and I feel for them every day. Look at Russia, you could argue (quite rightly) that is still not "fixed". What are we doing about that? In 250 years I suspect things will be radically different.

All we can do is do our best for those alive today, and hope their descendants have it better.

The sentiment behind this is just utterly stupid. I suppose you'll follow up with a nice parable about how the railroads were built. People don't want to HAVE to work long and hard, especially unnecessarily. When you look at wealth distribution, it's apparent that the majority of people are getting fleeced.

I hate to say it but this shows a terrible misunderstanding of the Chinese culture and my argument. You live, I guess, in a pretty ok envionment, and have never had to fight for anything very much (i.e. pretty much anyone in the western world plus most of the rest of the world). When you have had to fight for your very survivial as a person come back and make this argument, if you can :)