Cargo ships are emitting boatloads of carbon, and nobody wants to take the blame | Hacker News Reader

Cargo ships are emitting boatloads of carbon, and nobody wants to take the blame

phys.org

45 pointslr32 comments

If only there were a way to power a cargo ship with a renewable such as wind... /s

In all seriousness, I don't think the market would bear how slowly cargo moves under sail.

There is an extant design, a decade old now, to add a kite to merchant ships to reduce fuel consumption when steaming downwind. It reportedly works, but hasn't been adopted much past the prototype, MS Beluga Skysails.[0]

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Beluga_Skysails

Aren't some containers refrigerated for meats and other perishables? I would think if that were the case any increase in journey time might be offset by the increased fuel required to cool anything that needed to be climate controlled. As it stands the electricity to cool a container ship is mostly free due to the giant motor you're already running to turn the prop.

Reefer is not free, all loads on the motor burn fuel.

I think the parent to your reply understood that. Restated:

If there is a slower transport method that emits less carbon, wouldn't that carbon emission reduction be overtaken by the increased load required to run temperature controlled containers?

Thanks for rephrasing. I wasn't fully awake when I commented.

We could vastly decrease the refrigeration required before spoilage if we embraced food irradiation.

But we choose not to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship

This is awesome. Takes up some valuable container space though, doesn't it?

Regular fuel has volume too.

Perhaps closer to OP's vision: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkySails

Or maybe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_marine_propulsion

The market will inevitably be forced to bear many slowdowns. Reverting shipping to wind is logical. It could start with the cargos that consist of garbage and e-waste.

Not that it should not be addressed, but it is still by far the most CO2 efficient mode of transport.

I think what might be worth addressing is why the ships need to transport things in the first place. We're always going to need them, but I think we need to be more selective about what we're transporting. It's just too much stuff.

How we do that, I have no idea. Everyone is very entitled to their consumption habits in the west.

Everyone is very entitled to their consumption habits in the west.

Why?

I think you parent means it in the sense of "feels entitled", not necessarily that they deserve it.

Yes, that was poor wording on my part.

A carbon tax is how we do it. Calculate the carbon involved in producing the item and shipping it to you, then tax it. People will decrease their consumption of high-carbon goods.

My first glimpse of how a carbon tax is in alignment with the interests of protectionist trade policy.

"Make it too expensive to produce outside of our borders."

Who knew?!

Well except that it's probably more carbon-expensive to move a container of widgets by truck from the East coast to California than it is to truck them from Mexico or by container ship from Asia.

A carbon tax designed to fairly internalize externalities will not really please protectionists.

Serious question: assume that people bite the bullet and continue buying all this stuff. Thus paying the co2 tax. How is the money used?

Funding carbon sequestration efforts? Depending on the magnitude of the tax we could fund a net reduction of carbon in the atmosphere.

I guess you've never been to India or China if you think they're not obsessed with consumption and consumerism right now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I think the issue was with:

>in the west

It's not just us.

I know what they were trying to say. It's still whataboutism. India and China have only been about consumerism for the past 15-20 years - and large parts of India are still too poor to partake in it. The developed world has been at it for much longer than that.

In practically any discussion about environmentalism, climate change, plastic waste, the go-to argument for doing nothing is "What about India and China?" It gets a little frustrating to hear.

Are the same levels of education (along with guilt and shame) being pushed in those areas? I'm completely ignorant about that. What I have heard is that their rivers are the main source of the Pacific Garbage Patch and that the ocean will be much better off if we can collect that stuff and put it into a western landfill.

It gets frustrating hearing nothing but complaints about our culture and no praise about the good policies and progress we do have.

> Are the same levels of education (along with guilt and shame) being pushed in those areas?

There are efforts in progress[1]. Changing mindsets around littering, cleanliness of public spaces etc. takes time.

Keep America Beautiful has been running campaigns and lobbying efforts against littering for 2 generations.[2] According to this article[3] they only got started so they wouldn't have to face bans on packaging - which is what we're now seeing various Indian states enforce. Mind I think both are necessary: responsible packaging and responsible consumers.

> no praise about the good policies and progress we do have

Here's some sincere praise, from the bottom of my heart: I'm gratified to see that the vast majority of people in the US don't litter. They've taken the lessons and messages of the anti-littering movement to heart. Long may it continue.

1. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/02/india...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_America_Beautiful

3. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2006/05/origins-anti-li...

I suggest reading the article you linked to realize that it doesn't at all categorize my comment.

This is exactly how I feel as well. You look at a dollar store and its all Chinese junk that sat on a ship and was brought to America. Or any number of other goods that could easily be manufactured on the mainland that just gets put on a ship and sent across the sea. Can you imagine a container full of shitty meme t shirts being shipped? I often wonder if there should be a tax on distance traveled or something. It's unbearable for me to imagine.

Manufacture on the same continent that the things will be used on. Then they can just use rail.

You should smell it when they're loading hundreds of tonnes of butyl acrylate.

Or as I have said on occasion, brutal acrylate.

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