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Comment by londons_explore | Hacker News Reader

A failure of IT systems shouldn't stop the plane flying...

The gate staff should just let anyone onboard with a legit ticket or a sufficient story about buying one.

Sure, some people might get a free ride, or a few legit ticket holders can't get on because the plane is full, but overall, most passengers end up happy.

Simple things like "the pilot can't log in to the HR system so he gets paid for the flight" should be fixed with a combination of process changes and "let's just fly now, make paper records, and fix the computer records later"

Communication systems should have a backup of a large box of walkie-talkies in every airport so that, for example, the baggage staff can radio to the pilot to let him know they are done loading.

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There's a £2000 fine for passengers with inadequate documentation: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/passenger-documen...

Hwoever every 4-6 passengers they deny boarding is a €2000 fine.

For EU flights especially you still check passports at the gate - indeed it's the only place they are checked.

For other flights they normally check visas at the checkin desk, but if you're transferring you usually get visa checked at the gate. Most people have nice simple visas that pretty much anyone can check, a few troublemakers like me rely on more complex timatic rules (say TWOV in Beijing on multiple tickets), but no reason that can't be checked at gate either.

I believe they still check IDs at the gate, even for internal flights. (I am pretty sure they checked my ID the last time I did one) - It is not an passport check, just an ID check at the gate to match person to ticket (as the security in UK airport just check boarding passes, not IDs)

Not BA, although I haven't flown domestic for a few months.

Airlines like Ryanair do check photo ID on domestic, but that's for revenue purposes (to stop people selling tickets on the black market)

Ah, it is just Common Travel Area that needs ID, but not passport.

Nope, you need a boarding card and that's it

The Police do have far-reaching powers under the fascist "Schedule 7" of the terrorism act 2000 to demand ID of some sort in certain circumstances, but that's not unique to flying.

> For EU flights especially you still check passports at the gate - indeed it's the only place they are checked.

Which countries? I fly a lot NL<>ES, ES<>DE and they don't check my passport usually. I do take it because sometimes they ask for it, but mostly they don't.

The UK obviously being the outlier; very paranoid with extremely old scanners so security takes a long time, especially at Heathrow.

They only have to check at entry to Schengen zone, which the UK and Ireland are outside.

I was talking about BA flights. BA check passports at the gate to all destinations aside from domestic UK ones (and maybe London-Dublin -- I haven't done that flight)

I don't believe they run any inter-schengen or other "domestic" flights, and the 5th freedom flights they do run are like Singapore to Sydney so attract passport viewing.

Security is irelevent to BA's problems.

Some countries have an agreement with each other where the passport check isn’t required. For instance I believe Norway and Sweden have one because they are part of the Nordic Passport Union: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union

> A failure of IT systems shouldn't stop the plane flying...

You don't realise how much IT is involved in the process of loading a plane. Just the weight and balance calculation will take a very long time if done manually.

I expected that to be done by the airport and independent of the airline

No, it's part of the Flight Management module of the airline Departure Control System, based on the passengers boarded, their age and sex, the weight and containers of the bags checked, and the amount of fuel needed. This prints out a load sheet that must be signed off by the pilot, and then they can load the bags and fuel accordingly

From the second line of the article:

"BA said it is reverting to manual systems for check-in at airports."

The problem is that the manual process is slower and once a flight gets too delayed then it misses its slot and if too many flights get delayed it causes cascading problems since there aren't enough free later slots to put them in and you have to cancel.

In most countries, there are severe penalties for airlines who allow passengers to reach destination immigration controls without valid documents, so if there's any doubt, airlines will not allow passengers to fly.

In yesterday's world, yeah. Today, when you have to take off your shoes to get onto a plane in the US, I don't see that happening.

Not even in recent times; since Lockerbie they’ll offload your bags if you’re not on the flight.

If BA put aircraft in the air without any idea who was on them, they’d be rapidly forced to land again with the threat of being shot down.

But you don't actually need IT systems to record who is on the flight - all you need is a pre-printed list of legit passengers and a pen.

Yeah - the GGP is talking about just letting anyone go though:

> let anyone onboard with […] sufficient story about buying one

> some people might get a free ride

As dagw’s comment points out they’re using the pen and paper approach; however, it takes longer and missed slots/out of place crews can cascade catastrophically.

> since Lockerbie they’ll offload your bags if you’re not on the flight.

Not in the US...

Even back in the 90s - just a few years after Lockerbie - we had some UK guests staying with us. We flew from Detroit to Vegas for a few days. They're luggage got put on a different plane, and ended up in LA. They were horrified and couldn't figure out why their luggage was on a flight they weren't on.

Doesn't seem to be a big concern in the US, as I've had my own luggage get on wrong flights at least twice in the past 5 years, and I don't actually fly all that much (2-3 flights a year max).

You're mixing a mistake (luggage redirected) with a specific situation (missing passenger). Mistakes happen. But known abandoned luggage will be offloaded.

In 2015 I was flying from Copenhagen to Helsinki with Finnair. I missed the flight after checking in, and they didn't unload my bag, although they should have.

I was waiting in the lounge as it kept being delayed further and further, with the standard 'go to gate' message. Unfortunately they were also slow at updating the status and it went seamlessly into 'gate closed'. I ran to the gate, but was too late. The staff there seemed surprised that they'd missed me - they weren't even aware they were missing a passenger.

The fun then started trying to get my bag back. Copenhagen airport made me wait around for hours for my bag to arrive at the designated unloading carousel, and wouldn't open a missing bag ticket. Eventually they had to concede it had gone missing somewhere after I found the baggage handler who'd unloaded some bags from my flight saying he hadn't unloaded mine. They still wouldn't admit it had flown ahead of me, even as a possibility.

When I then got to Helsinki on the next flight, I went to the counter and told them they had my bag. Again they told me there was no possibility they had it, and wouldn't even look. So I gave them my ticket number and left. They found my bag shortly after I left, of course.

I have on multiple occasions been boarded by pen and paper in the US when technical issues prevented the electronic systems from being used - somehow airline/ground staff in the US often seem more empowered to do this sort of thing than their European counterparts.

It may be a difference between domestic and international flights.

At least in Europe going to/from the UK is a lot more cumbersome than to another EU country, since they are not in the Schengen area.

It is far easier to fly to Switzerland than to the UK.

I flew out of Heathrow just the other week, and I'm pretty sure BA doesn't have enough staff to accept checked baggage and get it onto the right plane without any IT systems.

Luggage might be one big factor;

If someone does not board; their luggage is removed from the hold for security reasons. To do so, safely, would require so much communication between flight and ground staff, that I'm not sure either staff would know how to begin without the middle-ware.

> a sufficient story about buying one

That's insane - that'd never happen. There's no way they can take that security and immigration risk. I bet they can't even do that if they want to - I'm sure governments need to know all travellers precisely.

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