Comment by kaitai | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kaitai | Hacker News Reader

A lot of folks are -- often justly -- saying that we should be training more Americans for some of these jobs.

I worked for some time in a professional masters program that mostly has non-US enrollment, despite being in flyover land. To complete it costs a fair bit, though it's lower-priced than similar such programs on the coasts, and when you get out especially if you're an American student you're often looking at $90k+ for starting salary (depends on a few factors). It's a very remunerative field.

But we just can't get many US students in! We've been trying to figure it out. US students mainly come in when they've reached a point at their company where they have a manager who says, You need these additional skills -- go to school to get them, and we'll pay. I'm not talking "learn JavaScript library blah", I'm talking stochastic calculus. The school part really is helpful because there's a ton of theory that you don't learn by doing the practical applications.

US citizen grads are placed so fast. There's no such thing as a sure bet, but this grad program is a high-expected-value bet. And yet we just... can't... get... Americans.

I think it's the math. So many Americans are just scared of math. Some of our Chinese students "know" they're "just bad at math" but they don't see that as a particular obstacle; just need to study harder. Americans tend to see it as an inborn anatomical characteristic or something. But also it's the cost of a master's after taking on the crushing load of undergrad debt. Some of our students got their bachelors degrees for free in their home countries & then just had to float the cost of this masters, which is less tuition-wise than 3 years of state college.

There are more structural problems than just "companies, you should grow your own talent". I agree companies should do more: but if we really wanted a US society that fostered technical excellence, we could make sure our schools did that. We've made sure our schools foster football excellence, for instance.

And to get back to the direct topic: we're seeing a ton of RFEs for our grads, and there is no other masters' program that does this stuff within a state and a half of us. You've got to drive 8 hours to get to the next one.

You have brought up something that most Americans don't want to hear i.e. "The Truth"! I have worked for well over a decade in the US (but i did not study there) and had always wondered about the dearth of "Americans" in the Tech. Industry. Here is my blunt assessment;

1) Your entire culture/society has turned away from STEM fields. Everybody is only interested in making money via Media/Management/Finance and any other way to "get rich quick". The pursuit of knowledge is gone. This is quite sad given that your previous generations did much to develop and spread scientific temper throughout the world.

2) Americans also suffer from major self-entitlement. In a global world, the fact that your previous generations were scientific top-dogs does not guarantee you the same status without working for it. You have to compete and prove yourselves worthy. So when the industry brings them face-to-face with reality they lose heart and start blaming everybody else for their predicament.

3) Americans are averse to hard-work. Here the Chinese/Indians wipe the floor with them. It is a standard joke in the Tech. Industry that while the Chinese/Indians do the actual work, the Americans are only good for bullshitting in Management/Marketing/Sales roles. Whatever happened to the "American Work Ethic"?

4) It is now a truism that much of the Tech Industry work has been "commoditized" and the barrier to entry has gotten lower. Most workers are mere "Craftsmen" rather than "Engineers/Scientists". For example, i have worked alongside PhDs in Physics/Mathematics/Biology etc. and their output was comparable to mine (no PhD) simply because the domain did not need their specialization. Most of the Software Industry is like this.

I just wish that the current/future generation of Americans would take a good hard look at themselves and make the necessary changes to their society to build themselves up again instead of blaming "immigrants" and everybody else.

Unfortunately, you have just described the stereotypical American engineer and the main reason why managers here from other countries, such as India and China, will rarely hire an American for a domestic position. I can tell you, first hand, this stereotype is not durable nor applicable. I agree, most American-born students tend to go towards the 'soft' skills, such as marketing or sales. But many people I'll also give you, Americans aren't the best at rote learning, ie., memorizing texts. I'm not going conclude by saying American-born engineers are getting maligned, only those critical points you allege as being endemic to US engineers are applicable to engineers everywhere.

My intent was to shine a spotlight on a specific mindset (whether real or imagined, the external effect is the same) which affects Engineers/Management in the Tech. Industry. One has to face realities on the ground whether one likes it or not.

Note that what i described above exists in the "middle strata" i.e. the vast majority of work/jobs which have been commoditized and thus has a lower barrier to entry. As an example, i may consider myself as an experienced super-duper "Systems Programmer"(limited jobs) but given that the number of jobs in "Web Development" are at-least a few orders of magnitude greater than in "Systems Development", i would need to learn Web Technologies and compete with kids half my age if i want to earn a salary and keep a roof over my head. Generalize this to competing with developers throughout the world and i have a major problem. Therefore in order to make myself more attractive to clients i need to bring lots more to the table like Experience, Hardwork, Humble mentality, Willingness to learn and Getting things done. The necessary change has to come from within. No amount of blaming H1Bs or others is going to help me.

Incidentally, the above viewpoints were explained to me by a Microsoft HR person himself! It came as a shock initially but over time i have come to accept it and learned to change my expectations.

>> RFE

I didn't know what RFE is, posting it for other readers as well.

USCIS makes an inquiry called a request for evidence, or RFE, when they require additional evidence to make a decision on a H1B case. ... An RFE can be for information about either the beneficiary or the petitioner, or both. After receiving an RFE, you have up to 90 days to submit documents proving your case.

What program is this?

At a guess: Financial Math MSc at UChicago - finance is the only field both requiring stochastic calculus and being able to pay well for it. Or possibly the same programme in Minnesota or Urbana-Champaign.

Cool TY!

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