Comment by noname123 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by noname123 | Hacker News Reader

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I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. It was very well thought-out suicide note; I think most people are quite baffled by it because of the degree of author's rational explanations, extreme honesty and empathy for others in spite of his own pains.

Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming which a lot of us could relate to,

At times growing up I would feel inconsolable rage, but I never connected this to what happened until puberty. I was able to keep the darkness at bay for a few hours at a time by doing things that required intense concentration, but it would always come back. Programming appealed to me for this reason.

I thought that if I got into to a good college, or a good grad school, or lost weight, or went to the gym nearly every day for a year, or created programs that millions of people used, or spent a summer or California or New York or published papers that I was proud of, then maybe I would feel some peace and not be constantly haunted and unhappy. But nothing I did made a dent in how depressed I was on a daily basis and nothing was in any way fulfilling.

Like Bill Zeller, I retreated into programming at an early age to right a wrong and while programming is a lot of fun; I hid behind a screen to escape personal problems that I thought that the coding marathon high, money & prestige would solve. And the more fun programming got, the worse the issues got and the more I dived into my rabbit-hole.

This is not to take away anything from Bill Zeller; he is an incredible brave man alive and dead. Anyone who went to Trinity knows that it's a very hostile environment for coming out. The fact that he kept coding software then and beyond and kept a completely normal pretense is incredible to me. And I want to thank him for his iTunes ripping software, his inspiration to me when I was at undergrad and his brutal honesty in his suicide note.

I wrote this, then decided that you must be trolling and thought better of it. Then I thought better of thinking better of it...

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There's something that we need to understand about depression, suicidal depression: a depressed person can commit all their intellectual powers to rationalizing the awful feelings they have about themselves and the future. Someone sufficiently sharp can make an almost impenetrable cage out of these arguments. Their ideas can have the force of fact, of truth itself.

We find what we look for. Even the arguments we make to ourselves have their stakes and motivations. Mr. Zeller's written a great defense here of the futility of his own existence. He was apparently a smart guy; had I been there myself, I doubt I'd have been able to refute him. However, that he wins the argument doesn't mean that what he believes is true. It doesn't mean that he gets to have me respect his decision.

This is a hard thing, and ever so important for people dealing with someone who is depressed to this degree. Depressed folks can be very sharp, so we shouldn't let this kind of logic take us in. There is something deep and fundamental about life or death that an argument cannot sway; if my friend just can't go on and I can't find a problem with their reasoning, that doesn't mean I have to respect their decision. I just haven't found why they are wrong yet.

There's something very deeply troubling about your comment, though--the idea that reasons and logic don't matter. That's plain irrational dogmatism, and the fact that it's dressed up to support a relatively uncontroversial conclusion like "suicide is always wrong" doesn't justify it. I'm not saying Bill Zeller was right to commit suicide--who can know that?--I'm saying there's something wrong about your reasoning here.

It's not that reason and logic don't matter. Reason and logic are imperfect tools, though, and engineering is a different sort of problem than deciding whether a friend should live or die. Honestly, hope for the future is often an irrational idea. It can be difficult to defend - especially against someone who is bright - but it is essential.

I don't believe that suicide is always wrong. I do believe that the lives we value should not be given up easily, and that we should not be easily swayed by the death wish words of the departed who we so dearly miss, mourn, and respect.

From the sounds of it, this guy did not give up his life "easily". I consider it a testament to human self-preservation that he survived this misery for so long.

Reason and logic are not imperfect, only used imperfectly by flawed beings.

People often get this backwards. Emotions are the lines and reason is the colour. It's very had to colour outside the lines. Most of the time the picture of our lives is drawn by our emotions.

Clearly from the letter your respecting his decision is of little consequence. He wrote the letter so that you might understand him, not so that you would approve.

As for finding a reason where he is wrong, I'd say his dismissal of the counseling community was a bit swift because I know the difference between a good therapist and a bad therapist; but really that's beside the point.

The bottom line isn't about the acceptance of some "objective" truth. The only thing that would have mattered is if you could have guaranteed to Bill that there was a way for him to fix the problem and feel better. If there wasn't a way, then it's cruel of you to think he should have forced himself to endure a tortured existence just because you have an axiomatic objection to suicide. The truth is no one can say for sure whether there was a better solution for Bill, but since he spent 23 years dealing with it and wrote a pretty compelling piece, I'm gonna take his word over yours.

I'm not going to have an imaginary argument with a dead man here, nor do I mean to condemn him for what he did. I accept that it was a long, hard struggle, and that he lost. The only person who could have found a better solution was Mr. Zeller himself, and he has settled that question permanently.

I didn't think it was rational or positive at all. He suffers constant feelings of helplessness and inadequacy that permeate his every word. He is irrationally fearful and mistrustful. He's a misanthorpe--though I bet he wouldn't call himself that, because he'd rather blame himself than blame humanity, such that he would rather go to the grave than risk therapy... and his utterly twisted view of his fellow man led him to hide his problems until he dumped it all out in a way such that he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences he so feared, because he'd be dead.

The real burn is that he not only didn't want to put his rapist in jail, but was terrified of any steps that might remotely end up in that possibility. It's certainly very sad, but it's also, not to mince words, fucking cowardice that might even lead to seeing this tragedy repeated.

I don't want to be harsh, but we cannot cannot cannot talk about this stuff as positive or rational at all. Because it not only isn't, but these patterns of thought are extraordinarily dangerous to someone who might think they are rational.

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life.

I disagree. Maybe it's possible to understand some of what he felt from his eloquent explanation, but I don't think suicide is ever the only solution.

There will be other people reading this, who will be in similar situations. It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'.

There isn't anything brave about taking your own life.

Whether or not taking one's own life is brave, having read his suicide note I think he lived a very brave life.

Trying to live through this must have been so hard - and yes, maybe that involves bravery; but I think 'bravery' is the wrong term.

I think he lived an extremely difficult life - and I think it ended in tragedy.

It's a tragedy that he was subjected to abuse, it's a tragedy that he wasn't able to ask for (or receive) help and it's a complete and utter tragedy that he ended up taking his life.

I'm not sure anybody is saying his suicide was the right thing to do - what struck me was the logical/emotional trap this highly intelligent person had gotten himself into. I mean, clearly reasonable problems trusting anyone (he'd presumably trusted his family, and his unnamed abuser - and look where it got him! - along with his friends who outed him when he thought he had a reasonable expectation of confidentiality), so how could he get the help he needed? He couldn't even reasonably tell anybody of the bind he was in.

It was like a real-life version of a Chalker novel, without the escape of knowing it's just fiction. Horrible to read, given that his extreme eloquence and rationality make it crystal clear what was going on in his mind.

I don't think he was brave to take his life. I think he was brave to continue living it as long as he managed to do so.

> I don't think suicide is ever the only solution.

What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine? Or a belief that it's a person's duty to live through intolerable pain for the sake of others?

> It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'.

It annoys me that so many people will take a person who finally found peace from a life of intolerable pain, and have no thought but 'I would prefer they hadn't done that, to satisfy my abstract beliefs about right and wrong.'

I think the whole thing is very sad, but I feel very gratified to know that he is free of his demons forever.

> What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine?

It could be a personal belief, just like your belief that "he is free of this demons forever" or the fact that he somehow "found peace". I don't see anything wrong with someone believing that suicide is never a good solution.

> It annoys me that so many people will take a person who finally found peace from a life of intolerable pain.

There is something about that statement that is bothering me and again, it is just probably because it clashes against my belief on life, death, etc. matters (so don't take this as a valid reasonable disagreement, just another point of view). The idea that somehow "he" is better now. I emphasize "he" because somehow it implies his continued existence, and that is quite strange. What if "he" doesn't exist anymore so there is nobody to feel at peace?

Does that mean that I would have preferred for him to still be alive and be suffering? Would have that been a better way? I don't think so either, so I am just another confused person.

I guess the best scenario would have been been if he sent out what he sent out but he didn't actually kill himself.

Perhaps naively, I believe that would have helped him, it would have let others know about his problem, and others , maybe even strangers like us, discussing his actions here, could have shared our stories or tried to do something to help.

I perceive the earnestness in your remarks, and I appreciate that. I mistook your earlier comments as more judgmental than they actually were. Sorry about that.

When I was in college a girl who was a close friend of a close friend killed herself, and I remember experiencing the same kinds of regrets that you are expressing. Wasn't there anything else she could have done? Didn't she know how much people cared about her?

Since then I've experienced things that have given me a different perspective, namely how a person's mind can be a prison of pain that all the external love in the world is a weak opponent against. I feel like Bill captured that when he described how even a relationship with a wonderful person whom he liked very much was sabotaged by his "darkness."

Maybe there is a drug that could have given Bill peace in life, but reading his note I feel almost certain that nothing anyone could say or do would have soothed his torment.

I completely disagree.

I don't dislike the idea of suicide because of a sense of morality. I think suicide should be avoided because it's so utterly final.

Your opinion also involves an abstract belief, don't forget that.

I'm an atheist - I don't think that heaven or hell awaits us when we die. I believe, when we die we cease to exist.

Your point of view only makes sense if one accepts the idea that nothing can be improved. If we accept that there's no hope left in the world - why bother at all?

There are whole fields of science dedicated to helping people improve their outlook on life after living with abuse. It's irresponsible to dismiss the options that are available.

I still feel suicide isn't the only - or best - solution.

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing

How, really?

Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming

By killing himself?

Like Bill Zeller, I retreated into programming

Did you kill yourself?

It's difficult to read what you have to say as anything but self-absorbed wankery but perhaps I've got it totally wrong.

I see your point - initially when I read the same, I thought that making reference to programming insight as a conclusion was a bit trite and insensitive.

I don't think the OP was trying to be insensitive - but it's not possible to take anything good from this act alone. The only possible positive thing that can result is increased personal understanding of the challenges that our own friends and acquaintances might be going through.

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