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Comment by csunbird | Hacker News Reader

There is a housing problem in Berlin now, because there are a lot of tech workers are immigrating from India, Turkey, Russia and many other countries for work and the rents are over the roof.

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I am not sure about Berlin, but for example in Milan (Italy) there are nonsensic prices for homes (London level prices with salaries of about half of the half of what you get in London) and they are driven up just by the movement of other italians from other (poorer) regions, or even other close cities, looking for jobs.

The main problem is that most high level - high skilled jobs are now in 2-3 of the biggest cities in Italy, and now everyone is trying to move there and so even more companies try to move their HQs there, and so on. I think a similar problem is happening also in others EU states.

Italian economy is so miserable and few opportunity hubs so competitive that most Italians in their 20s and 30s end up in Germany and UK. Meantime rich Europeans visit Italy each summer searching for dolce vita and forgetting that 60s and 70s are long time gone. What an absurd.

Yeah, and I don't think it will stop anytime soon.. Some (myself included) call it the second industrialization.

The amount of tech workers migrating is minuscule compared to the number of unskilled migration coming from countries like Syria and Afghanistan to Berlin. That is where the demand shock on the housing market comes from.

You're both right. Correcting OP, desperate tech workers accepting being lowballed, hopping between temporary apartments each couple of months, being replaced in 2 years by someone even more desperate, hoping to get their feet in the door (into a place with minuscle payrises and impossible housing market). Ideal candidate is someone from outside of EU (or an EU country but troubled with decades of economic crisis) with a spouse and a child. Have fun you all, because I'm out of this freak place!

> number of unskilled migration coming from countries like Syria and Afghanistan to Berlin

These people cluser in the city districts ruled by Middle Eastern organized crime (if you ask Germans, no such phenomenon exists). There, market forces don't apply and housing market is hermetic to the outsiders - and it doesn't matter because you wouldn't want to live there.

I kind of disagree with this view over salaries. There’s a lot of rules to bring a skilled worker from outside of EU. One in particular deals with how low can your salary be, which if I remember correctly is around 45~50k. The main problem I see is with poor countries inside EU. I remember a Portuguese girl in my previous company with similar role and experience making 30k a year, she left when while complaining about salary they said they could offer a 10% raise which would be an amazing raise for her. Same situation on the current company, this time with a Hungarian guy.

45-50k is not enough to make a good living in Berlin, when your rent and utilities (everything included) is around 1k to 1,250 EUR, which leaves you around 1k EUR to live by.

Is that a joke? With €45k+ in Berlin you have a pretty decent way of living, that’s higher than any median or average. And you can have good rent if you don’t live in trendy areas where prices are inflated.

> With €45k+ in Berlin you have a pretty decent way of living

Then cancel you rental contract, rent something new again and now... if not homeless (or stuck with airbnb)... re-estimate what the decent salary would be.

I’m in the process of moving right now (literally in a week), I’m quite aware of rent prices. Maybe we have a different definition of “decent” in this context.

So what when that’s higher than any median and average? It’a enough money to survive in today’s Berlin, but it’s far far away from anything decent! Started almost decade ago with these €45k in Lindau, 800€ rent, 400€ unavoidable expenses. Add some savings and an upkeep costs of a 7 years old car and it’s gone.

>7 years old car

Mr. Big Shot

It is happening all around Europe.

Rent control + increasing wealth of the economy is crowding areas and limiting to bid for new renting spaces.

Are places with rent control better or worse?

The only city I am aware of with rent control in Europe is Stockholm. Apparently finding a flat there is a nightmare. Where I live there is no rent control and its still a nightmare trying to find somewhere central to rent for a decent price.

There is all kinds of rent control over all Europe. In Stockholm is a nightmare. I tell you, 20 years to get a flat. There are other forms of rent control, that affects more or less. The economist Juan Ramon Rallo studied this matter deeply and he states that the only solution is deregulate construction (more buildings, higher) and no rent control, so tenants can rent cheaply without so much requirements to get into a flat.

Playing the devils advocate, it's not 20 years to get a flat. It's 20 years to get a large, cheap, centrally located flat.

You can get a firsthand contract for spatious 2 room apartment in Märsta for 14k a month right now.

Yes, we're talking about big cities. People want to live near the center, but even at 14km is not matter of days. You need to wait.

Ok, its true, there is some sort of rent control where I live, the inflation can only go up by the same as inflation - for the duration of the contract. But then one the contract is up they can charge what the market will let them. Contracts were 5 years, went down to 3, and are now back up to 5.

At the end of our last 5 year contract the rent went up by around 45%. Bought a small place further out instead.

It's happening all around the world.

I'm in a US Rust Belt city that's lost population since the 1950s, and had flat growth in the region since 1970.

Yet in many neighborhoods housing prices have doubled to quintupled over the past 15 years.

Similar stories in a lot of other rust belt areas which I know are not booming. The urban areas are definitely more attractive than they used to be, but it doesn't add up. It makes me think the drive behind this is post-financial crisis monetary policy.

Yep, borrowing is cheap and real estate returns are regular. They outpace inflation, and many other places you can put your money, do not.

Fortunately, not in Singapore. Our rents have come down in the last few years.

(Still at a very high absolute level.)

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