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Comment by antpls | Hacker News Reader

For the non-initiated among us, what does it mean to "use a team of pacemakers"?

Why are those pacemakers that important?

It's a group of runners there to keep up the running pace, to block wind and generally add morale.

Over the duration of the attempt, runners will hop in and hop out of the run to keep the running pace alongside Kipchoge as well as block wind (a non-trivial factor) over 26.2 miles. Also, it is mentally boosting to have teammates and even competitors of his run along side him as he pushes his body and mind farther than he has ever had before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)#Runnin...:

”Drafting behind another runner can conserve energy, although the effect is less than in cycling due to the fact that speeds are lower.”

There also is a psychological effect. It is easier to keep a constant pace if there’s somebody in front of you that does it, too.

So use an AR headset to put a virtual person in front of you keeping a constant pace?

Marathon runners would run naked if they could. Certainly don’t want or need some heavy gadget on their head.

A device like google glass wouldn't be much heavier than their usual glasses.

Every once counts. Also, it would be a pain to keep on while running.

Are there any ultramarathon runners that wear glasses while they run?

It’s very common to wear sunglasses in an ultramarathon. Runners usually also wear a vest to carry their water, food, safety gear, headlamp, etc.

Different sport altogether, it’s more the endurance so the pace is generally lower. Also you usually won’t have much support along the way so carrying water & food is pretty essential.

There are specific limits on the size and functionality of sunglasses at sanctioned track and field events.

Some events don't even allow the use of Garmin watches (by elite runners) because they can be used for pacing.

Very much a non-elite runner here, but yeah, "run vs my previous best pace" is a standard mode and seeing "you are 12 seconds ahead and will finish with a time of xx:yy" is very, very motivating.

No need for AR in this case. There was a laser grid projected onto the road in front of the runners by a pacing car.

https://image.businessinsider.com/5da1887a4af90974904877c2

https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2...

But that can't provide the drafting and morale benefit of running behind your teammates

Wait ... why a laser projection? You could just use the car for pacing.

Maybe for keeping a safe distance without having to eyeball it, or for avoiding the fumes.

Might want to use an electric car to avoid the fumes. I do wonder if the car, even a larger distance ahead, does more for drafting than a human in front of the runner.

I don't have the source on hand, but there was an interview with the person who designed the unusual reverse-V shaped pacer formation, where he said that if it was up to him there wouldn't be a car in front of the runners. The goal is to have as much air as possible hit the front pacers.

According to the article, it was an electric car.

They used an Audi e-Tron car for pacing the Ineos 1:59.

For the previous attempt at the Breaking 2 event at Monza racetrack, they used a Tesla as a pace car.

Road cyclists frequently draft behind a car or motorcycle; motor-paced racing used to be a very popular discipline and motorcycles are still used for pacing the Keirin event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor-paced_racing

Could be a requirement to stay a certain distance back to keep the car from performing too much of the drafting maybe?

The pace car was a Tesla so no fumes :)

IIRC it was done that way as a way to follow the optimal path, instead of eyeballing it and taking corners too wide and adding more distance. Might not seem like much, but he had to shave off less than a minute of his previous attempt, so every little helps.

That would be amazing for many sports, I think. Gamers are used to ghosts in races showing them what others have done. Doing this for real-life sports could really change how people train.

Personally, I find this a very inspirational idea.

> Doing this for real-life sports could really change how people train.

Strava live segments kind of do this already and it's more of a curse during training. The hardest part of training for running, aside from the consistent long hours, is taking it easy most of the time. Strava segments cause you to compete with yourself and others and go too hard. This quickly leads to burnout and injury. Slow, consistent runs are what you need during training, and a GPS watch can already give you that.

I won't argue that nobody will use it incorrectly. In fact, I'm positive that it'll happen just like you say at first.

And then the internet will be flooded with bloggers talking about how everyone is doing it wrong since they're now self-proclaimed experts, repeating the same things they've heard someone else say.

And eventually, most people will get on the right track with it. It'll be a "GPS watch" in their head that's far more effective.

And I'm sure people will take it beyond that in ways that neither of us are prepared to imagine yet.

What possible benefit would AR provide in this situation?

phkahler thinks if the record attempt is invalid because of the team of pace runners, why not use a simulated pace runner to gain the benefit without breaking the rule?

Of course, if the speed benefit of pacing is down to psychology and camaraderie rather than purely information, a simulated pacer might not offer the same benefit.

There were 3 reasons why the record is invalid: swapping pacers, drinks handed directly to him by support team (on bicycles), not an 'open event'.

AR would allow each athlete their own personal pacing grid, or ghost racer, or ideal line. You can run that on a watch or bike computer (or heads-up display), but AR would be that much more intuitive.

It doesn't apply to this one-person demonstration event, but it would sell like crazy to the gear nuts.

When Roger Bannister broke the 4 minute mile, he also had pacers.

Those were different; they all started at the same time as him.

Having pacemakers in marathons that way is deemed acceptable. The organization of a marathon will even specifically hire runners to, say, run the first half in one hour ten minutes, after which they are free to step out of the race.

Here, each pacemaker, including the ones that accompanied him to the finish line, ran for only about 9 km (my guess, given 35 pacemakers used and using groups of 7). So, the last group only started running when Kipchoge has run for over one and a half hours.

The rule for pacers is that they must start the race at the same time and be able to keep up with the runner being paced, though they don’t have to finish it. Swapping fresh legs in mid-race isn’t allowed.

In a college indoor track 5K, one of my teammates was being lapped by another teammate competing for a podium spot. The guy being lapped started sprinting to help the guy near the front of the race finish strong. That was ruled illegal pacing and they were both disqualified. It was a similar sort of situation — in order to legally pace you must be able to keep up with the runner your pacing.

It varies by event. Personal pacers in the marathon are uncommon to begin with. In ultramarathons they are specifically not allowed until late in the race. That a track event would rule that way had become an unfortunate expectation.

Pacers in ultras largely serve a different purpose. They’re there for safety, especially once it gets dark. In events 50 miles and shorter, pacers usually aren’t allowed. Sure, the elite runners could get some actual pacing at the end but that’s a very small portion of pacing in ultras.

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