How Apple Almost Got Microsoft’s Kinect Game Controller | Hacker News Reader

How Apple Almost Got Microsoft’s Kinect Game Controller

cultofmac.com

48 pointsrecoiledsnake26 comments

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not quite sure I follow how they "almost" got it. Perhaps if they were negotiating numbers and figures and it just fell through -- I could see that; but just because the initial meetings didn't go so well or were hung up on NDAs? I don't get it.

EDIT: It is, however, a cool story to tell...

> It is, however, a cool story to tell…

Right. Microsoft : PrimeSense :: Tartars : Joseph Boyce

If you’re an inventor, it probably doesn’t hurt to have a origin myth. And, I’m not quite sure if Apple is therefore the Luftwaffe or the lard...

I had been under the apparently mistaken impression that Microsoft had developed Kinect in house.

Since Microsoft Research has such a strong computer vision team I'm surprised that they needed to go to an outside company for this technology.

Based on the Wikipedia entry, Microsoft developed the gesture, voice and facial recognition software which drives the Kinect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect#Technology

But Primesense developed the depth sensor. http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=h0GvAAAAEBAJ

I'm afraid most companies have no idea how much their legal departments, with all of the bullshit they pile on everyday business transactions, cost them.

I'm pretty sure the developers have an idea how much is lost.

I'm sure most developers have no idea how much money is saved by avoiding lawsuits.

What device(s) would Apple even stick the PrimeSense technology in? The 12 watts [1] needed to drive the thing only really makes sense on desktops, and for what - a weird experimental Minority Report style 3D interface?

[1] http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/04/kinect-teardown-two-camera...

Is that 12W continuous, or just 12W when the motors are moving the head? It seems to me that it should be possible to run an audio interface and two cameras on 2.5W (theoretical max USB 2.0 power). A DSP performing acoustic echo cancellation and depth calculation and a bright IR emitter could add another few watts, but I don't think that accounts for 12W.

I've got a Kinect at my desk, and the power supply is rated for 12V at up to 1.08A, or ~13W total. My Kill-a-watt shows it drawing ~3W at idle, ~4.4W running just depth, and 4.6W running depth and RGB. Running depth, RGB, and the motor only gets me up to 5W.

The Kinect power supply lists 100V-230V at 0.3A. Using the minimum voltage, that's a peak draw of 30VA. The power supply has a measured power factor of ~0.44, which if maintained to full load means it could draw .44*30=13.2W. Somehow I doubt the power supply is actually 98% efficient at its normal operating range, so in a laptop where a 12V supply is already available, the additional power draw of a complete depth sensing system could be under 4W.

To sum up, I think you could successfully integrate depth sensing into a laptop that already has a camera and microphone array, especially considering that the sensing field will be much smaller. Please correct my estimation if I've made any errors.

Imagine walking up to your desktop and it recognises who you are and automatically unlocks? Apple has been rumoured to be working on something like this.

There are a multitude of ways this technology can be applied, and just because you can't envisage a way to use them - it doesn't make them any less useful.

"No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame."

That technology already exists, and can be used on any computer with a webcam, Kinect would be overkill: http://www.keylemon.com/product/

With depth recognition it would be more difficult to put a picture of someone's face in front of the webcam to unlock the computer.

True, but it is interesting what little soap, toilet paper, and hair can do... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_1962_Alcatraz_escape#Escap...

Apple TV maybe? Not built-in but as an add-on controller for the device and games/apps?

It would make sense for the current incarnation of AppleTV, as it runs iOS and it's driven by Apple's A4 chip. Technically it could run iOS games, but it's missing a direct intuitive interface (like multitouch on other iOS devices). Kinect-like tech could bridge the gap, and I wouldn't be surprised if Apple came up with something similar.

However, back in June of 2008, the AppleTV was a very different product than it is now. Its innards were more like a bare bones Mac Mini than a iPad. And aside from the architectural differences between Intel and ARM, the App Store was yet to open - Apple could not have predicted iOS becoming such an immensely popular game platform.

I'm not sure how small they can make the Kinect hardware - I doubt Steve would approve of an add-on more than 6 times the size of the Apple TV.

The image on this page looks like it's about a third of the size of the Kinect:

http://www.primesense.com/?p=487

I'd hardly say Apple "almost" got it based on that anecdote.

>"'Apple is a pain in the ass,' he said, smiling."

I'm not sure how that becomes "almost," besides, what would Apple do with a game controller?

According to people I have known who negotiated with them, Apple was far, far harder to deal with, and paid less than other customers. The "PITA" factor I find credible.

Apple TV comes to my mind...

The Israelis probably did see far more wider uses for this technology, but it seems to me Microsoft just outbid the others and then marketed this only as a game controller. Though, I wouldn't be too surprised if we were to see more uses for this popping up in the next version of Windows or somewhere else.

Given how recently it was realeased, it's hard to say that the rumor of Kinect coming to Windows has been kicking around for a while. But it wouldn't surprise anyone at this point: http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2011/0120/Is-Ki...

It's not exactly a "rumor", Gates and Ballmer have been talking up its eventual PC use since well before the Kinect's release. http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/15/bill-gates-natal-for-wind...

Obviously military, industrial, surveillance, security, shopper tracking in stores, and cashier tracking for cash businesses, would all be possible uses. Hook it up to a MakerBot and you can use it to disassemble things as well as assemble them.

Mythical

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