Ask HN: Random upper back pain is ruining my life. At wits end. Anyone else? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Random upper back pain is ruining my life. At wits end. Anyone else?

43 pointsanm8976 comments

I'm writing in total desperation. I feel like I can't make it through another day of meaningless, constant back pain. I've had it on and off for 7 years now, since I was 24 (now 31)

It's this weird vibrating, tingling, burning, muscle sore combination that moves between the left side of my neck, under my shoulder blade, my left trap, and sort of out to the back of my ribs right below my shoulder blade. The pain moves around and sometimes I'll get a similar feeling on the other side of my body which makes it all the more confusing.

I've been to doctor after doctor after doctor and I have absolute no more info then when I started.

I'm on the verge of quitting my job because I feel like I can't go through another day tomorrow.

The only thing I've ever correlated with more or less pain is how hydrated I am (ie less pain if more hydrated) and even that is pretty loose.

Has anybody ever gone through anything like this? Has any body ever gotten over it or am I doomed to this for life?

View on HN

I've been dealing with a similar issue for about 11 years now: severe chronic back pain that wouldn't quit, caused by a bulging disc. The pain would often show up in random places or travel down my legs giving me a burning/tingling sensation.

I tried physio, chiropractors, acupuncture, yoga, cycling, swimming, multiple doctors, and pain killers with no luck. The only thing that really helped me to substantially decrease the pain and put it under control was lifting weights! I got a personal trainer who had experience in this area and over 3 months he helped build the foundation and teach me how to work out properly, this was 6 years ago. Strengthening the lower back muscles and regular exercise has reduced my pain by about ~85%; however, the pain does come back if I don't exercise for more than a few weeks.

Maybe exercise is not the solution for you, but I just wanted to tell you that even though this pain might make you feel helpless and depressed, if you search long and hard enough it is likely that you'll find the solution. Don't give up!

I also wanted to chime in and say that I periodically will have bad lower back pain. Consistently the one thing that will fix the issue is working out, with a plan. Core workouts, deadlifts, etc.

The key part is making sure you start with a decent trainer to ensure you have good form and don’t hurt yourself.

So, please consider some consistent, good weightlifting as an option.

One note of caution here - I tend to overdue it on the chest work which shortens the pec minor and exacerbates upper back pain. I need to mix in a lot of pec stretches and rowing work to balance things out.

Oh 100% was my issue too. Lots of chest work, then stopped going to gym. My back weakened and knotted right up my neck into the fascia. Actually caused my eyes to water (I swear I wasn't crying)

I'll second this. I had severe back pain in my late teens due to growing 8" in one year. I didn't have the back muscles to support the new weight of upper body. I started weight training pretty regularly and don't have any problems now, at 31.

I will add that when you start weight training, make sure you do face pulls. Setting at a desk all day causes your Rhomboids to lengthen and become weak. Face Pulls will really help strengthen this muscle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiRAi2KOfRQ

Copied from a thread comment I read years ago which changed my life.

>I suffered from chronic pain that was starting to seriously interfere with my life for a couple of years. I could find neither a cause nor non-invasive solution till I read The Mind-Body Prescription[0]. It quickly and completely fixed my problem. I actually learned about the book here on HN: I'm usually a very skeptical person, but enough self-proclaimed skeptics (who were embarrassed to admit they even read it) claimed success with it that I decided to check it out.

I highly recommend reading it (with an open mind) if you're suffering from a chronic ailment that lacks an obvious physical cause. I used it for chronic pain, but the author claims success with just about any other type of "catch-all" diagnosis that doctors make when they're stumped, like IBD.

BTW: the doctor is an American psychiatrist with a long career, so it's not your usual alternative medical book. But I consider it "alternative medicine" in that it's based on similar principles as some other alternative medicines and the theory does not seem to have any sort of acceptance in the western medical community. (The author cites his evidence, and provides his explanation for why the medical community rejects that sort of evidence.)

[0] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FA5SJS

Made an account to say that I had really bad wrist pain that was making my life hell. I found about this book in an earlier HN thread. I read the book on a Saturday and by Monday all of my wrist/hand pain was gone. Thank you for sharing this and hope it helps someone.

Yes I too made a very similar comment(1). I had very similar symptoms as you and now I am completely heeled. This book changed my life.

Please get the kindle edition and start reading it immediately. Your description is very likely TMS and even though Dr Sarno says a physician needs to make a diagnosis first to rule it out first, I believe you may get a lot of value out of it too.

Also view some TMS testimonials on Youtube (search TMS pain recovery) to get started quickly.

Just promise to keep an open mind.

(1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17982355

For me, regular exercise got rid of the back pain that I used to get from working at a desk. This took about two months until I didn't feel any pain anymore. In those two months, I experienced more severe back pain though than I had before. As it turns out, this probably came from eating too many nuts.

So as I started working out more, I also began to eat more healthy, including lots of nuts every day. After a couple weeks of this, I started getting this intense pain in my upper back on the right side, which I never had like this before. I was having this pain for about two weeks and it was there constantly, no matter if I was sitting at a desk or not. Any massages that I got to address this didn't help.

According to a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcrii9_Um0I), eating lots of nuts bloats up the gallbladder, which then presses on a nerve. This can lead to pain on the right side of the back and, although I didn't experience this, pain in the neck and headaches.

I then stopped eating nuts and the pain was gone two or three days later. Today I do eat nuts again. But if I eat lots of them every day for weeks on end, the pain does come back, although I never had it as severe again.

So maybe even though your pain tends to be on the left side, dietary changes could be worth a try.

One entity to consider in your differential diagnosis is that of contraction knots, aka “trigger points” in muscle fibers. They are a common cause of referred pain and can also cause all sorts of symptoms if the contraction knots also impinge upon blood vessels, nerves and/or automatic fibers. Because Western medicine basically ignores mechanical issues that aren’t amendable to surgery, it can be tough to find a doctor who can diagnose trigger points properly unless they’ve been trained to do so.

I went through a somewhat similar problem a decade ago where I had excruciating pain and burning to one side of my sacrum for years. I could not sit in a chair for more than 20 minutes, and could only sleep on my stomach. I went to doctor after doctor who put me through test after test, only to end up with no diagnosis or relief. One day I happened to be scrolling through the AM dial when I came upon a show where someone was talking about piriformis syndrome, a type of trigger point that resulted in symptoms identical to mine. I found a doctor who treated it with myotherapy and the rest is history.

I recommend The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook by Clair Davies NCTMB and Pain Erasure by Bonnie Prudden. Also Quick Study makes a nice Trigger Points chart. Truth be told, I’m surprised this issue isn’t discussed more given the occupational hazard created by sitting in front of a computer all day. I hope you feel better soon. Please keep us posted on your progress and take care.

I've had similar problems to this, although my back pain is a bit higher, and creeps into my neck and jaw. I think I've lessened the pain a lot, but it is always somewhat there. Here's what I've learned, tried, and done. Just going to say though this may not work for you, since it might be completely different.

For me, it is my right side, not my left (and I'm left handed). But sometimes I will get pain on the other side as well. I think it's a combination of RSI as well as getting rear-ended by a car. I've never gotten surgery, but I have tried almost everything.

I started with going to the doctor, getting opiates and muscle relaxants. The opiates helped a bit, but the brain fog made it harder to do my job. The relaxants didn't help much. In the end, my back was so tight, it was like a rock, which then became the source of the pain as I couldn't get it to relax, and the stress would build.

Then I started getting professional massages. If you haven't tried this yet, let me assure you, they are completely worth it. Professional massage therapists are amazing, and they really know the body, and have probably dealt with dozens of people with pain like yours. They are a great resource and as good as a doctor IMHO for showing you exercises and stretches, since they will feel your body and know exactly what is tight and/or seemingly wrong. Doctors never seem to get to that level of detail, they are just too busy and don't have the time, nor are they as touchy-feely in general.

Massage, pain killers (especially ibuprofen and other things to reduce inflammation) and heat (hot baths, jacuzzis, spas) really can help to relieve symptoms. Even a few days break from the pain is good. I would also suggest medical cannabis, just because the chronic pain is bad, which makes stress, and that only makes the pain worse. I've had off and on luck with chiropractors, although I don't think it was as helpful as massage, but it is generally cheaper (and covered by health insurance). Also, check how you sleep! I noticed a lot of improvement once I got a new mattress, and I realized sometimes sleeping without a pillow and having my neck flat was better than a pillow.

Once you manage the symptoms a bit better, I would suggest doing strength training exercises. This really changed my life. There's a few weight training exercises that will help strengthen your back and correct bad posture. After doing these for a couple of months, my pain was greatly reduced and for some times, eliminated. It was never heavy weight - 20 lbs would do it, it's more about resistance and doing a lot of reps, getting the range of motion in and breaking up the tightness. When you're done doing some lifting, ask yourself if the parts that hurt are tired now? That's how you know you've targeted the right spots. For me, this one exercise changed my life (not my video, sorry about the loud music):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a9JBPQVKz0

After doing 20-30 reps, I would feel so tired in all the same places that used to hurt. Ask someone at a gym for help if you need (usually they will do it for free, if it's not busy, and just one exercise). It's hard to notice your form and if you're doing it correctly.

I would also suggest you check your ergonomics of your workspace. Are you standing or sitting? I've noticed that if I don't have an adjustable desk, I am always either too high or too low to be comfortable, and it's not great ergonomics. Get an adjustable desk even if you don't want to stand. Although standing can be helpful for maybe 5 - 10 minutes an hour. Don't try to do it all the time. Also, get a good chair. I have never been happier with a chair than my Aeron, and it was worth every dollar of the $1000 price tag. It has lasted years.

It sounds like from your post that the pain is mostly while you are at work, and not necessarily at home, although I'm sure the pain follows you. If you know what triggers it, sometimes that can lead to valuable clues. Sometimes it's my nervous habits that would do it, such as sitting strangely (like on my foot, legs crossed, etc) or leaning on one side of my chair.

If your pain is so bad, I would suggest not quitting your job, but asking your doctor for a medical leave of absence. That way you won't lose your health insurance, and you'll still get paid. That's what it is there for.

Sorry for all the rambling, but I wish you the best.

There was a thread [1] here a few days ago about the book "The Body Keeps the Score", which examines the link between emotions and physical pain.

I posted the comment [2] that is still top of that thread; basically I've been living this for many years. I've certainly found that chronic back pain (which I've experienced) responds to deep emotional healing.

Physical exercise is important too; I'm not claiming, and you shouldn't accept anyone else's claims, that emotion-based treatments will magically heal the pain without exercise or physical therapy.

But the reverse applies too, and the subconscious mind can certainly keep muscles tense and joints out of alignment for a long time, in spite of any exercise or physical therapy you undertake.

I'll repeat the offer that I made in that subthread: I'll be writing a document or perhaps rather starting a discussion forum, so that I can explain everything I've experienced and learned, and allow others to take what they need from it.

Feel free to email me (address in profile) to be included.

Be assured, there are things that can be done. I know how you feel, but trust that you don't need to suffer like this forever.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340636

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21341101

Sorry, you are in so much pain. There is a lot of good advice in this thread.

A related story. I had lower back pain on my right side for almost 20 years. It was not as serious as to seek medical attention but there were days I felt it consistently while getting in and out of chairs or beds, sometimes acutely. A couple years ago I took up Functional Mobility training. During the functional movement screen they pointed out that I was favoring my right side more than the left because the right was stronger and that was likely causing the QL to pull and shorten the right leg and lead to lower back pain. A few trips to a massage therapist and corrective training to stregnthen the left leg made the problem go away for good.

We have body imbalances and mobility deficiencies because manufacturing defects ;) Lifestyle and environmental factors like sitting at a desk hunched up or tensing up the muscles in the neck in response to stress makes these deficiences worse. Almost all of us also favor the upper traps too much for everything from breathing to lifting/carrying and use the lower core sparingly or not at all.

FWIW, you should consider visiting a massage therapist/physio who specializes in functional mobility and works with trainers who can provide long term corrective training.

I hope you feel better!

1. It would help to know what doctors have said so far so that we can eliminate some from our hypotheses

2. I had a minor case of myofascial pain which has reoccured over 2 years but physiotherapy gets it down and strength training helps it stay at bay

3. However my girlfriend, who had a fundamentally similar pain has been suffering for more than a year and a half with days when she is bed ridden. It doesnt help that she's a biologist so her work at the microscope severely messes up her neck. The pain and stiffening keeps increasing, there's soreness and what have you. It is diagnosed as fibromyalgia.

4. The way we have gotten better at managing it is. a. Physiotherapy. I can comment more on this once I know about how much of this maps on to your condition

b. Harm reduction of the occupational hazard(which applies to desk job folks too).

c. Very regular exercising

d. Majorly, diagnosis of nutrient deficiencies. She's been a vegetarian all her life so she was deficient in protein, Vitamin D and B12. Supplements helped with her recovery.

e. Some CBT. Chronic pain fucks your brain and muscular pain is exacerbated by mental distress. So mental health managrment is part of our stratergy for her.

Im sure this is super hard man. Don't give up. It's really about finding the right path.

Yes!! This description especially of the maddening tingling, buzzing pain and inability to pinpoint the location of the pain sounds exactly what I started dealing with in my early 20s (except on the right side). I had this on and off throughout my entire adult life. Long periods of standing or sitting still or working at a screen/computer definitely aggravated the problem for me. For me the resolution came one day in my mid to early 40's in a yoga class that I'd gone to not realizing it was a bit more challenging than I'd expected (it was a partial ashtanga series class) The instructor responded to my look of shock and horror that we were going to attempt full wheel (a back bend) by saying (correctly, as it turned out) "you can do a back bend". From that moment of fully opening my spine in that inverted direction, I have never experienced that particular, horrible creeping, tingling pain/numbness again. Sure, I've had pain and discomfort of various sorts over the ten or so year since Mark said " you can do a back bend", but I have never had that particular, chronic creeping tingling pain.

Hey, would you be open to contacting me at the email in my profile? I would like to very briefly interview you about your experience and try to learn from it.

As a smallish counterpoint. I had chronic lower back pain for much of my 20s that increased until 29. I tried yoga around 27 and got pretty into it. I’m a flexible person so the back bends weren’t a problem, but after a few months I started to get a new thing: shooting, sharp pain that felt like a pinched nerve. It was definitely from the back bends, and once I stopped yoga it stopped.

Over the last two years I’ve “beaten” the back pain. I only ever get it on the rare occasions I pull super heavy work days and don’t stay mindful.

There was no magic bullet for me. You have to keep moving positions. I never work for more than 35 or so in the same position. Lean forward, mid, back, then take a break. Even lounging at intervals. Posture work is just a lot of small things and improvements at margin.

For me, back and shoulder pain increases with time spent in front of a computer. Probably a combination of posture and weakness.

Yoga, mobility, and strength training (weights or body weight) have significantly reduced my back tension.

Ymmv, and I don’t know all your details. Feel free to ping me if this resonates though.

I’ll second all the recommendations to work out. A bit of strength training, and a bit of calisthenics. Your report also calls into question your scapula and thoracic areas. It can take a bit of skill development to get the form right, but it’s worth trying. Happy to dig into this further.

Also, two other recommendations:

* check out a Feldenkrais practitioner. How we hold and move our bodies can be adjusted. Also, you might also check out the Alexander technique. I think this is less likely, but it might lead you to something. I’ve also found massage to be really helpful.

* somatic psychotherapy may be helpful if you have a psychological trauma manifesting in your body. Somatic psychotherapy is healing the mind through the body. Trauma and armoring can be tremendously powerful partners.

I second these recommendations. Also, some other ideas: pilates, swimming, argentine tango (it's amazing what dancing with a beautiful person in your arms can do to pain.)

Threw my back out multiple times a year for about 3 years and it was paralysing. Learned fundamental Yoga exercises and now do a couple of them in bed when I wake up and a 30 min night time session 3 times a week. Haven't had a single issue since beginning this routine.

I recommend studying the short book "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie and also finding a physical therapist familiar with his techniques. I was in similar distress and it was fairly quickly resolved by these techniques and I have also observed these techniques being effective for several other people. Physicians in the US are not trained in physical therapy yet physical therapists in the US are only allowed to apply physician-prescribed treatments! This can lead to some bizarre Catch-22 situations until you find a highly experienced physical therapist who can work with you. Checking if they use the "McKenzie methods" is a touchstone.

Seconded. I've had several episodes of acute pain (agony, really), and these ideas, together with similar things discovered on the Internet and YouTube seem to have resolved the situation for me.

There are many possibilities, of course. Be your own scientist. And especially, try things with little downside first.

It’s odd, this sounds exactly like what I had for a couple years.

It would start with a Sharp pain around my ribs And then in the next day or so it would move to my back. My guess is that the back muscles worked too hard at compensating for the rib pain somehow.

Two main things helped. Stopped doing sit ups and most ab exercises. They triggered the rib issue pretty consistently.

Also starting take magnesium supplements. I feel it coming back sometimes if I miss a few days of supplements.

(Also you mention the hydration link, that sounds like it definitely could be an electrolyte issue. So magnesium for sure and also try to get more potassium)

Finding medical advice online is always hit or miss, but I had severe upper back pain for quite a few years that matched many of these characteristics. To my astonishment, the problem turned out to be gastric and related to stomach acid. After lots of tests that ruled out lots of things, it was eventually solved by an doctor who had a similar issue himself, and suggested that I try a high dose of Prilosec just to see if helped. I was extremely doubtful (since the pain was not in my stomach) but since like you I was desperate, I tried it. Behold, it helped almost immediately, and within a couple days I was almost pain free.

I eventually figured out diet and sleep position changes that let me stop taking the Prilosec (mostly sleeping with a wedge and allowing several hours after eating before sleeping) and now I mostly have the problem under control. At the least, knowing the cause and how to fix it makes the occasional pain a lot more manageable. While this might not be your exact problem, consider that it might be. And if nothing else, have hope that maybe you'll eventually find an equally unlikely solution that gets you past this current pain.

1. See a physiotherapist

2. In the meantime give your body position some variety - standing vs sitting, left-handed vs right-handed mouse use etc

3. Get a lacrosse ball and make a habit of doing a few minutes of manual therapy on your upper back each day - between the shoulder blades, just over them, and on your traps, all of these with your shoulders in varying positions - there are quite a few decent articles and youtube videos about this.

4. Seriously - see a physiotherapist.

Given that your symptom is related to hydration, I wonder if the pain could be related to kidney stones. An internet search gives me an article that says the pain location may move as the stones move around: https://www.healthline.com/health/symptoms-of-kidney-stones#...

I do a handful of Pilate Roll Ups when I first wake up in the morning and again before I go to bed. I do these everyday (takes about 5-10 minutes per day). I've been pain free for 8+ years. Here's a pic - http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/pilates/h_pilates2.htm

Have you checked with your dentist to see whether your jaw joints (where your jaw meets your skull under your ear lobe) are equally strong?

My dentist found that one side wasn't working as well as the other and made me a custom splint (a mouthguard I wear at night) which trains the weaker side to work properly. It looks like the one on the right in this picture [0]. Since then, all of the pains on that side of my neck and upper back have disappeared.

The way you've described your pain seems similar to what I was experiencing, so maybe this information gives you something to go on.

One caveat though: my dentist said that the mouthguard approach doesn't work for everyone (about 30% of people get a result similar to mine) as it relies on fooling your brain in your sleep to train one jaw muscle to be stronger than the other.

[0] https://healthyheroics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/orthod...

I've gone through the same with upper back pain that sometimes radiated to my arms. No therapy seemed to help and after 2 years it was hard to see how it could ever get better. Eventually I got into a multidisciplinary pain rehabilitation program and I made a full recovery in a couple of months. It turned out I was constantly tensing my upper back muscles and arms without noticing it. Never underestimate how much muscles can hurt if they don't get the opportunity to relax! After I relearned the habit of keeping those muscles loose the pain slowly subsided. I had to gradually build up work activity again though. In the beginning the pain would return when I would increase my activities. When you have pain for a long time there is also sensitisation of your nervous system so you have to take it slow.

I don't know if muscle tension is the cause in your case, but it could be a factor. Either way, if you have the option to enter a multidisciplinary pain management program I would highly recommend it.

This may not help your case - but posting in case it helps someone. I recently had an epiphany moment with a physio who explained that weak rotator cuffs and traps were responsible for my referred pain and constant neck injuries. One month of turnouts and shrugs has resolved four years of broken sleep.

I’ve found great relief from my chiropractor. My chiropractor will first use an electrical stimulator to relax the muscles, adjust the spine to restore movement, and... nothing else. Repeat a couple times a week until the issue is resolved, and.... nothing. Return if the problem returns.

Other chiropractors are trying to lock you in to a treatment plan, x-rays, etc. whatever they can do to bill your insurance for more and more.

Yet another type of chiropractor will sell you crystals etc.

There are major problems with chiropractors. Find a good one.

It’s changed my life, but I expect you’ll find many who have employed the other two types and aren’t as complementary.

Good luck.

Did you doctor at least prescribe some prednisone and cyclobenzaprene? That seems to be the standard treatment when I take three hours to crawl to the bathroom and finally make it to urgent care.

> Other chiropractors are trying to lock you in to a treatment plan, x-rays, etc. whatever they can do to bill your insurance for more and more.

This happened to me and I wasted a lot of money. I found my lower back pain was related to improper weightlifting form, but want to point out how right you are to mention that chiropractors do this sort of thing and I wish I researched it beforehand. They take x-rays and then proceed to find "imbalances" which they proceed to "treat" with these long treatment plans that don't usually work. Chiropractors are not doctors and anyone can find something that looks wrong with a shoddy xray. They also made me watch some weird video on subluxations that seemed to subtly suggest other diseases could be treated with chiropractics. And they also had me purchase bromelain and some other supplement that did nothing for me. The crime with all of this IMO is that it gives the impression that a chiropractor is like a doctor, but it couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm sure you can find a good chiropractor as you're suggesting, but just want to tack on to your emphasis that you have to do some searching.

Some chiropractors are not very good. Some doctors are also, not very good.

Nerve compression. It's horrible, and can go from non-existent to disabling fairly quickly from inflammation. I spent most of last year getting 7 root nerves fixed. The trick is radio frequency ablation, which is once you identify the nerve causing the pain you use radio waves to cause a lesion on the nerve. This blocks the nerve from working. I didn't know this before, turns out we have a lot of nerves that don't really do anything but cause pain. Pain specialist have it down to a science, I highly recommend. It can be an adventure identifying the correct nerve though. I found it well worth the inconveniences. There is also steroids that can be used for excessive inflammation too, but they tend to not like to use them unless they have too.

I don't know if this is the answer, but you could always try something like yoga. Maybe you just need to get off the couch and build some strength. Most chronic pain I've had over the the years went away with being more active. YMMV and I am not a doctor.

I'd like to suggest visiting at least one 'certified rolfer' to have a look at ya. They can be super heroes for the right conditions.

I have taken people around chiros, acupuncturists, and many other therapists. A recent experience had a close friend find some relief with a particular chiropractor - but we found the symptoms returned, and more treatments were suggested, with a 'long term goal of complete relief in 9 months or so' - then we tried orthopedic people and surgeons, then found way to a doc that was a chiropractor, but had several add on things, one being 'spinal decompression therapy' - the best thing about that guy / place is that he knew right away a couple of issues by looking at ya, pointed out things others missed by looking at an x-ray, and had a very specific 'we can fix 99% of this pain and problem with these things we do here in X amount of weeks' -

I would also seek a well experienced acupuncturist.

Others have pointed out great things to explore like emotional and body connected issues that are under-diagnosed in my experience as well.

For stubborn muscle like issues I have always been grateful of the additional information that a great acupuncture person and rolfing therapy person can provide.

I have found some doctors to be great, but mostly surgeons that like to cut when you have good insurance and chiropractors that like to have you on a weekly plan that lasts for months, they often have me looking for other opinions for true relief.

For some the right massages combined with doing the right exercises is all that's needed.

Be wary of any chiro people that say they know rolfing and more - sure they might 'know it', but only people certified with the Ida Rolf institute really know it and do it so well they can start fixing you session one after looking at your posture, imho, ymmv.

If you are in or visiting Nashville I can suggest some specific people to see that I have found to trust.

I am not a doctor / lawyer, not medical advice, verify with doctors, have not seen you, yada yada. Hoping you find lasting relief though!

possibly migraines? it started when i was around 23 and I had the same symptom (unreasonable back/neck pain). I just started to have headaches after visiting a neurologist and getting medication (pamelor), in the first month of medicine, the back pain stopped. after some months of headaches (and medication) most of it stopped. try to see if the pain correlates with coffee, sleep and fat food. everyone has certain triggers and they may take a while to appear. if I'd drink too much coffee, I'd have migraines in the next day. eating fat food on friday would just appear as pain on sunday or monday...

You haven't mentioned exercise. What's your training routine? How many hours a day are you sitting down?

Most back pains get better by making your back muscles stronger, less prone to cramping. Even for some types of injuries such as intervertebral disc damage, having strong back muscles help compensate the position of the back that causes the episodes.

You should at the very minimum be doing it three times a week with a good trainer.

In my case, I have a muscle behind my left shoulder blade that tends to cramp and it's super annoying. Also if I stop exercising for more than a couple of weeks my lower back tends to start to complain about it.

I went through something similar for many years. I went to physical therapy, I stopped running, I bought a StandDesk, my wife bought us a new bed, I almost stopped drinking wine. It lasted for years. None of those things worked.

Unbelievably what worked is what 3 people have already mentioned in the comments here already...

I started taking a vitamin daily.

Hard to believe, but I've been fine for a year.

This is the vitamin (I am not affiliated with this company):

Nature's Way Alive! Premium Max3 Daily Multi-Vitamin https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009F3RO2

Nerve compression. It's horrible, and can go from non-existent to disabling fairly quickly from inflammation. I spent most of last year getting 7 root nerves fixed. The trick is radio frequency ablation, which is once you identify the nerve causing the pain you use radio waves to cause a lesson on the nerve. This blocks the nerve from working. I didn't know this before, turns out we have a lot of nerves that don't really do anything but cause pain. Pain specialist have it down to a science, I highly recommend. Also, tingling or numbness is a telltale sign of nerve compression.

Does it hurt when your in bed? Before starting any exercise like so many are recommending, it might be a good idea to get an ultra-sound on your shoulders - sounds a bit like a torn rotator cuff from experience.

I've dealt with bouts of severe back pain from sitting at a desk for far too long through my 20s (and probably initially caused from a dumb injury lifting weights). I suffered with "throwing my back out" for maybe 10 years. It got to the point where I sneezed one time and threw out my back so badly I was bedridden for a full week.

But now I'm 42 and pain-free. Pilates (with a GOOD instructor) was what initially helped me. I started when I was still hurting badly and a good instructor can help you strengthen muscles and loosen what needs stretching without damaging you further. Mine was an active dancer and knew a ton about anatomy and injury recovery. I believe Pilates was originally created to help dancers recover from injury so it is a good place to start. Without knowing your underlying issue, most back pain people have comes from sitting too much, which means you can probably solve the issue completely through exercise and stretching.

Some small details that might help right away: a big key for me was learning how to "activate my core" which is something like sucking in your stomach but more conceptually like trying to draw your stomach back toward your spine. I believe it is a key element of many martial arts too, and by learning to tighten those broad, internal muscles you take stress off of the fiddly little muscles that are all knotted up and causing you pain. The more I was able to be aware of those muscles and activate them when my back was tight/tense, the easier I could loosen the knot, so to speak.

From your description of your pain, there is one key stretch that should address it directly. You might have heard this before from a doctor or P.T., but I highly recommend you do it routinely. Find a doorway and hold your arm up like for a high five. Put your raised arm against the wall with your shoulder at the doorway gently push your body through the doorway so you arm is stretched back at the shoulder. This should be a great stretch for your upper pecs and will probably feel quite tender. What is happening is that by sitting at a desk you are hunching forward which is stretching your back muscles and compressing your pecs. Exercising your stretched out and painful back won't do much, what you need to do is stretch your compressed pecs so they can take the load off your overtaxed back muscles.

Sorry you are feeling this pain. I came across this youtube channel of a chiropractor in Texas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dLOl66n2g. Guy is amazing and has helped a lot of people who were in so much pain even while walking into his office these people were suffering and almost immobile and after a visit they felt much better. Watch some of his videos.

Taekwondo helped my back pain. Your muscles get tense and tight and pull your bones this way and that. When this happens and nerves start getting moved or pinched then funny things happen, like pain and tingling.

There was a point I could not lay down without the pain. Gaining back full range of motion and strengthening muscles to do their job, support your body, can make a big difference.

Best of luck to you, I hope you find something that helps.

I can’t use a laptop on my lap or a table for an extended period of time. I had similar terrible neck pain, which went away after switching to a few monitors on a stand that brought their centers of the screen to eye level. I never really use my laptop as a laptop aside from airplanes a few times a year, the pain for me totally went away. It was very depressing until through trial and error I resolved it.

The thing that really helped for me was Alexander Technique. You have to find a good teacher - there are a lot of cranks, unfortunately - but the good ones are amazing.

My teacher helped me to work on my underlying habits around movement and posture. Once I had worked through that, I was pain-free enough to be able to start doing weight lifting. The lifting helped a lot, but it was only possible because of the Alexander.

Doing bear crawls and other animal movements from the gmb.io programs has been a huge help for me.

Their Elements program covers a bunch of movements that gets your whole shoulders, spine, and hips mobile.

I also use a standing desk 100% of the time I’m coding and walk about a mile per day.

Lastly, inflammation from poor diet and alcohol can be a big problem. You can reset your inflammation to very low levels with something like Whole 30.

There is a lot of varied and good advice in this thread, from trigger points to yoga to lifting weights. Self care and healing injury is complex and not a switch you can just flip, but it’s super important to start doing something. I believe even the positivity that gathers when you switch mentalities from “I’m in pain and can’t stop it” to “I’m in pain and doing X to fix it” is huge.

I hear absorbine / horse liniment (the vetinary grade stuff, NOT the weaker "safe for human use" one) cautiosly applied works wonders for muscle soreness. It's like deep heat / tiger balm, but a few hundred times stronger.

Of course this still needs to be combined with physiotherapy to resolve longer term, but the liniment can provide significant relief while you work on it.

All I have to add here is that the tingling and burning implies you have nerve involvement in some form. Have any of the doctors done a nerve conduction test?

I also see some merit in some of the other suggestions here: referred pain is a strong possibility given that the pain moves around, chiropractic or physical therapy may help, as might trigger point massage.

I had horrible pain in the muscles of the neck. Went to several doctors, had kinetheraphy and nothing changed.

I then correlated it to a lack of sleep and now see it as a pattern.

In order to avoid confirmation bias, I tested my theory over a few years in various mental states (work, vacation, happy, sad, sporty, couch potato,...). The link was and is always there.

Do you work out? I know that seems like a dumb question given your current constant pain, but if you can fight through the pain, working out will make your body strong. Go hard for 45 minutes every single day and you will see improvements. Working out may be the most important thing you can do each day for both body and mind.

Consider reading the Mindbody Solution. It’s a seemingly absurd book which I found to be a helpful perspective on addressing unexplained pain.

Also read Becoming a Supple Leopard. Also seems ridiculous but offers important perspective on referred pain and resolving issues all over the body through self massage, PT, and exercise.

I seem to have cured a problem like that in my 20's. With a back inversion machine and twice weekly about 10 minutes only. After half a year, it never come back. Had the problem intermittently for about 3-4 years before. Very painful, stabbing pains in those areas.

What's your diet and lifestyle like?

Weightlifting has helped a ton in combination with proper yoga practice (focusing on form, a la Iyengar) and watching my diet. Anti-inflammatory diets can also help a lot too, game changers on Netflix is a good intro to that.

Hope you find the help you need!

Are you right or left handed? Hopefully they thoroughly checked your gallbladder. If they have, then exercise is usually the best treatment, but you’ll probably want to go to a trainer one time to see if they can figure out what shoulder exercises would be best.

You could check this one http://atlascentar.mk/en/pocetna.html

Also you could ask there for local for you specialist certificated in Swiss center for the methodology

I found that climbing/bouldering regularly (a couple of hours once a week) helps tremendously with classical office-related pains, such as in the back and underarms/wrists. I've never had any serious issues with this though.

If you haven’t seen it, give a quick skim to “The Mindbody Prescription” by Sarno.

Several years ago I had a very strong on-and-off hip joint pain for several months. This thing helped overnight, with permanent effect.

Have you tried massage either professional or self massage with a lacrosse ball? It could be trigger points in your back. That's what I have. Search for info on self massage with a lacrosse ball.

Anecdata: my back spasms stopped after I started a daily multi-vitamin.

IANAD but sounds like it could be disc related.

> I've been to doctor after doctor after doctor and I have absolute no more info then when I started.

If you haven't already, see an orthopedic surgeon (preferably one who specializes in spines - but any ortho is fine) and get an x-ray + MRI w/o contrast. Sometimes you have to request/demand the MRI - MRI's can be expensive depending on where you live/insurance.

The ortho can then either tell you what's wrong based on the imaging, or have ruled out a bunch of stuff and might refer you to another specialist for other tests.

And lastly, for the love of all that is holy: AVOID CHIROS!

At the very least until you have figured out what is going on/what the cause of the pain is.

Good luck!

The hydration/burning:

It could be you are too acid. These comments fit with that:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21383772

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21386569

Start a journal. Track diet, symptoms and whatever life events you feel inspired to write about. Try to find patterns.

Other random thoughts:

Walking more (or other exercise) can help your body "take out the trash." This is generally helpful for health issues.

If it's nerve related, a B vitamin supplement may help.

If you continue to be desperate, consider reducing your possessions, especially upholstered furniture, books, curtains, carpeting and particle board furniture. Expect to feel temporarily worse before you begin to feel better.

If your diet includes a lot of diet foods that are supposedly good for your weight, quit eating that garbage. Eliminate sugar substitutes, butter substitutes, etc. Eat more real food and fewer "food products" full of chemicals. If you want potato chips, buy a bad whose ingredient list is potatoes, salt, vegetable oil and skip the Pringles that have a paragraph of long chemical names. This principle generalizes.

Eat actual food, not chemical compounds disguised to pretend it's food.

Start reading up on various nutrients and what happens to the body when you are deficient. Just read.

Start with Wikipedia and try to stick to .gov and .edu sites. A lot of stuff in the "wellness" space has a very poor reputation. Unfortunately, this is exactly the space you need to read about, so people with actual good advice are hard to tell apart from kooks selling snake oil.

You will need some general background knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff. You will want that to come from sources that are fairly trustworthy (though do actually be a real cynic and realize nothing is 100% reliable and official sources often parrot what's within the Overton Window rather than stating the objective findings that fall outside that window).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

As a general rule of thumb, skip advice from anyone on the planet who thinks colloidal silver is a good idea. It's a form of poison. It builds up in the system and we don't know how to effectively get it out again.

Repetitive peripheral magnetic stimulation can help dramatically. Otherwise know as rPMS in the literature.

Most people know it as TMS though (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) or rTMS.

Does HN have any rules on shilling? I know it's a tough thing to enforce, or detect. There seems to be a fair amount of it in this thread, although I'm not sure if it's "real" shills, or if they actually love the product. Regardless, I think people need to be more careful saying this one book/pill was the only thing that helped. A miracle! I feel like I'm reading one of those sketchy banner ads.

I was assuming it's pneumonia but I've never seen any pneumonia that have lasted this long.

Stop relying on Doctors. They are good at fixing acute problems, but for chronic stuff not so much.

Look, I had simular problems. What helped is : exercises, cold shower, good chair.

For immediate relief a TEMS unit can help. It won’t fix it though.

have you looked into trigger point therapy. I remember stumbling upon it 20 years ago. I was getting arm issues from knots in my neck. This solved the problem.

Same with lower back

I'm sorry you're going through this. The difficulty of severe, chronic, and mysterious pain is a very all-encompassing one. Find a good physical therapist. It absolutely does get better.

The body is a complex biological structure, and while it does have distinct parts, it is the holistic interaction of all of your skeletal, muscular, nervous, neurological, etc systems alongside the exterior physical demands you place on your body that produces your overall experience of it and physical therapists are the ones best trained to contextualize injuries and bodily disorders in this global manner.

As with diagnosis of a software system, it is difficult to find any objective definition of "this is what is causing the pain". Where the rubber is meeting the road is almost certainly nerves being pinched and tissue being overloaded. Much like patching a software bug at the surface level does not mitigate others like it arising, fixing these issues locally through massage, dry needling, nerve blocks, drugs, etc may not address the root of why they've arisen. Much like removing blocks from the bottom of a jenga tower affects how blocks at the top must be stacked to keep it upright, so too does a given local function affect function in other locales within the body as well as overall global function. Tightness can be caused by structural weakness elsewhere, and structural weakness can also be caused by tightness.

Much like software opinions, all of the treatment techniques people are describing in this thread are valid for certain use cases. Much like software opinions, choosing one without understanding what makes it applicable to a situation can have disastrous results. You need a good PT to help you know what makes any given technique a good idea and to point you in the right directions and to the right specialists.

Everyone's goals with treatment will be different as well. Perhaps you're only interested in not experiencing pain, and perhaps you're interested in being able to dunk a 20 foot rim and swimming the Atlantic ocean. In any case, the road to lasting health will be arduous. As a young person, please do anything you can to stave off surgery or anything that alters the structure of your body with any lever other than its own growth. The body does not decay nor produce random pains when properly cared for. Once you begin down the path of surgery you truly cannot turn back and outcomes are not good.

A good physical therapist is one that has the educational background to help you learn about your body, decide what paths are best to take, and engineer a strategy for you to take yourself down those paths. It's also vital that they are able to help you manage your attitude through it as well because they can't get you to health, they can only guide your will to get yourself to health. Unfortunately these types tend not to be the ones that accept insurance, but that produces a much better incentivizing feedback loop for them to deeply invest in getting you to health. These are the ones who have opted out of the standard accept-insurance-and-do-crazy-volume in favor of more personalized and rewarding work.

Good luck. It gets better. At 27 years old I herniated a few discs out of my back causing debilitating nerve pain that resulted in ~6 months of me needing help to get dressed and go to the bathroom all while furiously spinning wheels searching for a solution. Two years later and I'm much more informed about my body, well over the hump, and stronger than ever. No matter what your goals are with your body, you can and will get there.

I will

I have permanent issues. It's never going to be cured and surgery would be a mistake.

Helpful was exercises and consultation with a competent physical therapist. Yes I tried everything else. This doesn't cure it but makes life more livable.

You can cure these issues. Unless you suffered some sort of acute injury, have some sort of highly extenuating genetic circumstance, or your biology has expired, humans do not decay to a point beyond where they can grow back. I am certain that your circumstances are uniquely difficult, and that you are doing the work necessary to deal with them. Good luck.

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