Comment by TeMPOraL | Hacker News Reader

Comment by TeMPOraL | Hacker News Reader

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> Writing is fundamentally a thinking process, the text entry for a touch typist is relatively quick. If you are to propose expanding abbreviations, how much time do you expect to save? I mean, actually measured it?

Not quick enough. I think faster than I type, and I type fast. It's fine until I start getting impatient with myself. Call it micro-impatience, a flash of irritation in which you're suddenly conscious of not having finished typing in the thought. It's distracting.

Honestly, I like parent's idea; a good chunk of Emacs's awesomeness and the reason people like me use it as an operating system is because of that - unified, fully configurable and expandable text-based interface. I often wish to have something like it system-wide, because standard UIs are very far from optimum ergonomy-wise. But then again I wouldn't trust Apple or Microsoft to do it right; they'd quickly find a way to dumb it down, or restrict the extensibility in the name of security.

> the reason people like me use [Emacs] as an operating system is because of that - unified, fully configurable and expandable text-based interface. I often wish to have something like it system-wide..

I can totally imagine that. Underneath all the GUI layers, every operating system and application has (or has the potential of) a fully text-based interface. There's just no standard or integration, and tools that allow that (like a system-wide middleware) haven't caught on, I guess. Maybe in an alternate historical timeline, such a feature could have been a fundamental layer of an OS.

From the grandparent comment:

> a system [with powerful text input methods] that expands abbreviations, replaces easy-to-type sequences with proper Unicode chars, runs little scripts and inserts the output, gives you quick dictionary/thesaurus lookups, gives you emmet-style powers, etc., whenever you're writing and in any app.

Yes, yes - and the last point: in any app. I picture it like how TCL can script other programs, even ones that weren't designed to be "remote controlled".

> Underneath all the GUI layers, every operating system and application has (or has the potential of) a fully text-based interface.

Why do you say this? There is nothing fundamental about text. Is there something fundamental about text in Smalltalk? Or AmigaOS?

> There's just no standard or integration, and tools that allow that (like a system-wide middleware)

COM on Windows. Scripting interface to apps on MacOS. They're there.

Yeah, I had some vague doubts while I was writing that comment. I guess I meant "text-input based", or maybe better to say "keyboard based" with a system-wide/application-agnostic middleware of some kind.

"Accessible via a programming language" perhaps?

Not that. More like, UX paradigm more fixed and forced on applications, but also being customizable and user-programmable externally to any given application. So that e.g. you could have a system-wide autocomplete/code completion, whether you're in a code editor or text editor or in a dialog box of some other program somewhere; that system-wide autocomplete would be configurable and trivial to extend or replace wholesale with another widget.

This is a reality within Emacs (which really is a 2D text OS running lots of applications inside, including a text editor), and being text-based does play a role. When it's very hard to draw arbitrary pixels on screen and most of all apps deal with text, it's easy to make a large set of very powerful interface tools, and it's easy to pull data out of an app and put data into it, whether the app intended it to happen or not.

In the back of my mind, I sometimes wonder how something like Emacs could be made with modern browser canvas, to enable cheap rich multimedia, while retaining the ability for inspection and user-programmability. Introducing arbitrary GUIs is hard, because next thing you know, half of the stuff is drawing to canvas directly and it's all sandboxed away from you.

Excellent post, now I really see what you're getting at now.

> user-programmable externally to any given application

I think this is why it reminded me of TCL, specifically the "expect" command that can script apps that know nothing about it. From the Wikipedia page, the TCL Expect extension: "automates interactions with programs that expose a text terminal interface".

So how I imagine this "Emacs as an OS" paradigm you're describing, is that it mediates interactions with any and all apps that expose a text input/edit interface, to allow programmatic customizations.

Like I'd love to script my own shortcuts for Firefox (or other apps) - possibly with multiple steps, taking input from some config file, or sending a link to another app.. Or, as you mentioned, Emmet-style expansions that work in any input field or textarea..

To address just one point, in emacs you've dabbrev-expand (bound to M-/). I like it and use it but it is not automatic. I have to invoke it myself which means it can't get in the way.

If you want larger clumps of code then you have various options such as skeleton mode, but again that's something the user has to ensure happens - again they remain in control.

> But then again I wouldn't trust Apple or Microsoft to do it right

Oh hell yes!

> I have to invoke it myself which means it can't get in the way.

For the sake of completeness, you can always make it automatic. All it takes is to add a function to post-self-insert-hook, and make it e.g. call dabbrev-expand if you pressed space twice. So you can have it any way you like - manual, automatic, semi-automatic. You're in full control.

> If you want larger clumps of code then you have various options such as skeleton mode

Yes. I currently use yasnippets for code. Still, my favourite yasnippet is one I use in comments - it expands "todo" into: "TODO: | -- [my name], 2019-10-29.", and similarly for "note", "hack" and "fixme". | is where the caret ends after expansion.

That's the kind of flexibility I wish my OS had. Unfortunately, it goes against the commercial interest of mainstream OS providers.

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