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Comment by chadlavi | Hacker News Reader

There are also some smaller-time scams hosts run. I was forced to pay a three-figure cleaning fee by an AirBnB in DC earlier this year because they claimed I left a stain on their couch -- which I never even sat on (also, I was by myself, so it's not as though another one of my guests did something to it). I appealed and asked for photos of the supposed stain, but they ghosted me and in the end AirBnB ruled in their favor and automatically charged my credit card for the amount.

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Try calling your Credit Card company and flag it as fraud. That's what I would do. That failing I'd submit a police report.

That doesn't work well b/c then Airbnb just bans you from the platform

Why would you continue to give airbnb your business, once experiencing something like that anyways?

....what kind of behavior were you expecting? AirBnb has always had atrocious customer service.

I disagree. I've been both a host and customer for many years, and in general I've found the customer service to be good or even very good for resolving issues either as a host or as a customer.

In fact, many 'scare' articles about airbnb puzzle me, because it seem seems that the problems could have been avoided if the guest had read the reviews and/or booked with a superhost (or other host with a history of good reviews).

Having said that, I do think it's insane that the reviews are no longer listed in chronological order (or at least with the option to view them in chronological order).

> or other host with a history of good reviews

But how can I trust that the reviews are good if, as this article talks about, people are hesitant to post anything but good reviews for fear of receiving a retaliatory review?

Neither review is visible until both are done, so that's nonsense.

Uhm, that sounds even worse: so your bad review won't show up until a host responds, so they can simply decide not to, and your bad review never shows up.

No, because there's a fixed time limit to submit a review, afterwhich the review is posted irregardless. Hey, I guess airbnb put more than 10 seconds of thought into the design of the process, what do you know.

You act like people’s real names and contact information are not exchanged. AirBnb has no quality enforcement mechanism to protect your privacy, the quality of your stay, or the resulting fallout from a conflict.

The mechanism for preventing most bad stays is called the reputation system, which is based on reviews. As for exchanging real names, do you think the system would be improved if all participants were completely anonymous? There's a reason a hotel knows your real name and contact information as well. You sound like a troll.

> I've found the customer service to be good

Yea? Do explain your confidence.

Because the expected value of using the platform is still greater despite the known risks?

over $1000 lost is still greater value?

Where are you getting $1000 from? He says 3 figure so it's in the hundreds, I'm assuming lower. Everyone has there point where they'd be fine burning the bridge. To me the ability to get a place quickly with an app from anywhere has a good amount of value, but I'd have trouble putting an exact price on it.

Read the article. He paid $1,221 plus for the new last-minute hotel. Got refunded $399.

Expected value takes into account probability. You aren't going to lose $1000 every time you use air bnb. Probably.

Honestly if Airbnb helps people scam you do you want to be on their platform?

If this happened to me I would see getting banned as a problem. I wouldn’t be using Airbnb again anyway!

You say that, yet there are also some scammers who use chargeback on airbnb to not pay: https://old.reddit.com/r/AirBnB/comments/5q1css/planning_on_...

From a consumer that's fine - you've got your scammed money back (and they do not have the evidence that the payment was valid), and creating a new account is easy enough.

So you're willing to risk multiple hundreds of dollars at each airbnb stay?

They are stealing from you.

Would you keep going to a grocer who fraudulently billed your credit card, just cause they were cheaper?

How much cheaper than a hotel was your stay after a 3 digit cleaning fee?

One screw up isn't going to keep me away, as I've had mostly good experiences with Airbnb.

Is it worth a one time screw up of $200 for my years of positive experiences? For me, yes.

If the ratio of positive to negative experiences starts going down, I'll be finding other ways to vacation.

Likewise, if a grocer messes up once, but I've been going to them for years without issue, I'm going to let it go. If it starts happening more often? I'll look for other ways to get my groceries.

(Side note: I've been booking more hotels recently. But that has to do with cost and convenience mostly, not false listings or false cleaning fees or anything else like that).

I did this twice with AMEX and they didn't ban me. The second time they even apologized and gave me credits.

This is the 3rd or 4th comment I've seen about not reporting to credit card company because AirBnb may ban you.

Are people really so afraid of being banned by a company such as Airbnb that they will just suck up when defrauded?

It's a vacation rental company, and not very good at that. Why are people so afraid of it?

Genuinely curious..

Because they control a huge part of the market, and the cost of accepting the fraud is often lower than the cost of losing access to that part of the market.

That's essentially what I was thinking even when reading the article. Get a good credit card company that's on your side (Amex has been best for me, Discover too), and let them deal with it. They absolutely will not screw around with stuff like this.

Yup, fraud like this is exactly what chargebacks are for. Companies don't listen to anything but money. AirBNB counts on you being a pushover and not disputing the charge. I don't understand this "Well they charged my credit card so there's nothing I can do!" attitude.

Just be aware that a chargeback is an instant bridge-igniter with the company or platform you’re filing it against, most considering it a breach of the TOS and banning your account.

Who cares what a company trying to defraud you thinks about you taking action against it? Really.

They don't have controls to notice if you sign up with a different email and use a different card.

As proof, just look at how many fraudsters do so.

If you do this be prepared to not use the service you do this to ever again.

It's probably best to not use a service that fraudulently charges your credit card anyway.

Just the same it can be annoying to never have access to something like airbnb or uber.

Pick your poison. Both have plenty of alternatives. Vacation housing and transportation services have existed long before the internet came along.

You might find it hard to reverse charges. Credit card companies will absolutely reverse fraudulent charges. However, they don't like to get in the middle of price disputes in my experience. If you say you agreed to pay $10, but that you were charged $20, the credit card company may tell you to work it out with the merchant.

It really depends on the card. As mentioned, Amex and Discover really seem to be the best. I've only disputed a handful of times, and each time they refund the money immediately while they figure out who was right.

I’d immediately call Amex and tell them it was an unauthorized charge, then file a police report, and maybe go to small claims court.

This can work, but beware that the company may send the charge to collections. It's a slimy thing to do, but we are talking about a company that's built its success on evading all manner of legal responsibility. (And outright law-breaking by many of its hosts.)

I charged back a fraudulent charge to a local company, and they sent it to collections. Immediately sent the collection agency a registered letter demanding they validate (prove) the debt as required by the FCRA and California law, then another one a month later after they ignored me, and that was the end of it.

There's often no reason to fear these shenanigans. Companies get away with it when people don't understand their rights regarding credit and debt and cave in to the shenanigans.

Why would you wait to submit a police report?

If there's fraud occurring then a police report should be filed.

My kid had exactly the same thing happen. The host was local and attentive, but after the visit, they attempted to stick the guests for huge bill for a water ring in the finish on a wooden kitchen table that was already there when they checked in. This was not fine furniture, just generic 90's poly'd oak or veneer. The host was claiming the table needed to be replaced so the charge was high three figures. I'm not sure what the resolution was but the guests fought it.

Also avoid tiny rental car companies for this same reason. You'll find them listed on the major travel booking websites and they'll have names that you've never heard of. They often appear to be cheaper than the large rental companies, but they frequently have a chipped windshield or a tiny dent in a body panel.

Even if you point it out during the pre-rental walkaround, they won't mark it on the contract. That's the scam. Then when you return they charge you for a new windshield or a body panel/paint job, which of course they never actual have done because they want to scam the next person too.

Yes, you rented your car with your VISA and VISA will cover these charges eventually (takes about 3 months and you're on the hook for the charge for that time, and you'll never get the hours back that you spend sorting it all out).

You could say that you could just make sure all damage is marked before you sign the contract, and that's good advice at any rental agency, but it's still better to pay a little more up front to one of the major car rental companies who make their money on actually renting you a car instead of the company trying to find a way to scam you out of an additional $1000+.

Take a slow motion video inspecting the car at the start of the rental. I've supplied screenshots from the video, along with the full video itself, to my credit card company when disputing charges from the rental company. Took about an hour of my time, and a few weeks later the charge was reversed.

> you're on the hook for the charge for that time

I'm not really sure I consider having some of my credit blocked out while the charge is disputed, as being the same as being on the hook for the charge. The credit is essentially in escrow until a decision gets made, but it definitely hasn't impacted my bank balance in any way.

So is that what it's come down to for ABnB users? Record everything and CYA for an adversarial relationship?

Corporate really needs to step up here and enforce its rules and empower its rating system to drive this out. Otherwise it's not worth my energy to use the platform.

Seriously, aint nobody got time for that. I'm not playing that game.

> The credit is essentially in escrow until a decision gets made, but it definitely hasn't impacted my bank balance in any way.

That's perfect, but I guess our mileage may vary. I was charged the amount and VISA later credited it when everything was resolved (about 3 months start to finish). I didn't miss the $1300, but I'm sure it would be a concern to some.

I carry a small bright flashlight in my work bag now, just for dark airport garages where rental cars are often parked. I've never had a problem with a major agency but I don't need a first.

I try not to be too paranoid a person, but whenever I get into and leave an AirBnB (or rental car for that matter) I walk through and take a video of everything using my phone. Takes a minute, I've never needed it, but it may save my ass some day.

Had the same happen to us, host inventing damage and trying to force a fee through AirBnB. However we disagreed with the fee and AirBnB never charged it.

I have to think that the hosts have their own trustworthiness rating in AirBNB's system. One guest disputes a charge after you've rented dozens of times? Probably the guest's fault. Every other guest disputes the charge? Almost certainly the host is doing something scammy.

This makes me feel so much better about just paying to make it go away (I was charged for "17 carpet spots"), thinking it wasn't worth the time or aggravation.

These places (airbnb, vrbo, its all the same stupid schtick) are emphasizing the rights of idiots to rent over the rights of renters to have a safe, enjoyable time while paying lots of money. They got the product they built.

That's really unfair, and I definitely think you should've got your money back. However, looking at it from a business standpoint, it's more expensive for them to lose a host than to lose a customer. So that's why I'm guessing you got the short end of the stick.

Looking at it from a "business perspective", if this becomes prevalent behavior, visitors stay away from the business and your "hosts" become worthless.

This scam actually works only in so far it is not prevalent and relatively small scale (100 listed properties is arguably not small scale anymore, but compared to the total number of listed properties...). However, now is the time for the platform to ensure this does not become a common experience, or they risk losing it all.

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