Comment by vinceguidry | Hacker News Reader

Comment by vinceguidry | Hacker News Reader

Some 8 years or so ago I experimented with triggering mood changes using a meditative technique. I had long been doing 'centering' meditative exercises so that I could bring more focus and clarity to seated practice. I wanted something more practical that would affect my everyday life.

I eventually settled on two 'states'. A 'centered' state and a 'joyful' one. Any time I noticed myself outside of one of the two states, I performed the quick ritual to bring myself back to it.

After a few days of practice, I found myself shockingly good at performing quick, directed mood shifts, in any situation I found myself in. I settled into a routine that lasted a few weeks.

It didn't suck, I never 'overdosed'. It was every bit as cool as you can imagine it being.

However over time I lost the desire to keep it up. Eventually I realized that, in the end, being able to relate to others requires a certain amount of empathy, and being blissed-out all the time made it really difficult to do that.

It might get easier if everyone around me also could stay centered or joyful, but if I want deep fulfilling relationships with others, being able to feel what they feel and not what I want to feel is important.

This is ultimately what makes addiction so caustic to relationships IMO. Your mood stops moving and flexing with your social environs. It's a feedback loop that closes you off from those that sustain you and you lean heavier on the substance.

I too have bumped into this during meditation, but being in my early 20s and not having a teacher or instructions, I ODed on bliss.

I was living in a state of bliss I could turn up and down for years. I could turn it up so high I'd pass out from it.

After years of this, something happened and I stopped being able to feel bliss at all. It was like a part of my neurology had been fried. I assumed it was something I had done so I turned to suttas to try to figure out what was up, assuming it was a meditation problem. I learned Buddhism, I solved my psychological problems, even ended suffering, but at the end of the day the bliss was gone never to come back.

Doctors call it depression, but I'm optimistic and enjoy life. They may have never bumped into anyone like me before.

At the end of the day I'm grateful for the experiences I've had, but if you live high as a kite for years, you can OD on it. I imagine someone who ODs on a benzo or meth might have a similar experience.

Yeah, another reason I eventually gave it up. Emotions are ultimately more fun when you mix them together like music, not just hit one high note all the time.

Really it comes down to a middle ground and not overdoing too much of a good thing.

I'll reply once to my own comment to the three requests for tutelage with the same thing I sent in the one person that emailed me.

The technique isn't particularly hard to develop. I used hand gestures. Hold your hands in the gesture and focus on the desired mood. Best done initially when you are only slightly 'off' from the desired mood. Rinse and repeat until you can do it more readily and in situations that are further away from the desired one.

The hard part is in remembering to do it, and in maintaining the patience to keep at it. If I hadn't already had years of meditation experience by the time I came up with this idea, I don't think I would have been able to follow through.

I used the teachings of George Gurdjieff to help me reach a place where I could rely on my ability to remember such things at the time in which I need to remember them. PDF link follows, however not the one I used. I personally read the first few chapters of his first book, Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson, which is an impossibly dense read that communicates a stupidly simple message.

http://www.gurdjiefffourthway.org/pdf/SELF-REMEMBERING.pdf

For the sibling comments who are eager to change their minds (literally): Please note that there are also risks.

OP and proverbialbunny talk about negative aspects that you should be aware of (especially because it sounds like some of you reach out to this with great desire). Messing with the void without proper understanding is dangerous.

[1]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-po...

Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process?

Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our former paths with the added bonus of the end of suffering.

Yes, the same process on the path to enlightenment that makes you become aware of your no-self is the same that most people in this article suffer with.

That's the reason I gave this warning: Most people don't want enlightenment, they just want a "life hack" ("change your mood to calmness and joy with these 5 simple steps"). I don't see a problem with this, but I see the possibility of enduring pain in these people. The path to enlightenment is a commitment only a few are willing to make - it is the most painful of all ways, but it's also the only one (for some - only those have a chance of bearing the pain). well, you know, that's just like, my opinion, man.

The search ends when the seeker stops to seek. And realizes that he did nothing else, than to spin in circles.

It may turn out we're rather attached to those circles.

> The search ends when the seeker stops to seek. And realizes that he did nothing else, than to spin in circles.

In my case, the search did not stop, the circles just found new dimension.

The rest of your truth is perfectly truthful. :-)

>Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process?

Probably. However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice.

>Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)?

Yes, the Buddhist path[1] is supposed to lead to the end of suffering and rebirth. Clinging and craving produces karma which leads to rebirth. Stopping karma will lead to the cessation of suffering or nirvana.

>it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our former paths with the added bonus of the end of suffering.

No, it is not possible[2] for a householder to attain enlightenment. As a householder you have responsibilities (house, family, work) which inherently leads to clinging. However as a householder you can improve your chances at a good rebirth through merit (good karma). The best a householder can attain is stream entry. Monastics offload the dirty work of human survival (food, protection, etc) to householders in return for merit (virtuous cycle). You have to don the robes to cross the stream.

[1] The Noble Eightfold Path

[2] In traditional Buddhism

> However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice.

Maybe 'the practice' (as practiced by people in the Vice article) is incomplete, in the sense of lacking a better understanding of things to expect, companion meditators, ethical guidelines (Sila), and a more experienced teacher to help one understand what one is going through mentally.

> No, it is not possible for a householder to attain enlightenment.

I think this is incorrect. The Pali Canon mentions at least a few lay Arahants and many lay once-returners and non-returners (so beyond the stage of stream-entry). [1]

I should mention that I'm not Buddhist and don't really believe in rebirth, karma, enlightenment literally. However I do believe at least karma and enlightenment can be stripped down to psychological processes and states, and I don't see a reason why a dedicated and talented householder can't achieve the psychological equivalent of enlightenment.

[1] https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Lay_arahant

> I think this is incorrect. The Pali Canon mentions at least a few lay Arahants and many lay once-returners and non-returners (so beyond the stage of stream-entry). [1]

I stand corrected. I should have limited my point to say that nirvana is out of reach for householders.

>I should mention that I'm not Buddhist ...

Same here. I am personally not into the unsubstantiated ideas in Buddhism (like rebirth, supernatural, etc). I just think much of the Buddhist philosophy is interesting and useful.

I am interested in trying something akin to those mood-modulating techniques of yours. Can you perhaps elaborate on them a bit, or give some pointers where to look? Is this something which can be incorporated into mindfulness practice, or not really?

Thanks! :)

Teach me please. I need this.

Teach me too

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