How to play with people who are better than you
wellcomecollection.org
wellcomecollection.org
Decide if you are comfortable with your current skill level or not. If you want to get better, train up. If you are happy with your skill level, then keep losing. That's fine, and I think its healthy to decide to place limits on your skill.
Skill is an infinite treadmill: you can continuously get better at pretty much any subject from now till the end of time. Deciding when to get off the treadmill is just as important as deciding to stay on.
> Games of skill are less appealing if you know a certain person will always win.
I disagree. I will always lose to Magnus Carlsen in Chess. I will always lose to my friends in (insert any FPS game here, I'm bad at all of them). I will always lose to Mew2King in Super Smash Bros: Melee.
My inability to defeat the greatest players of a subject does NOT make the game less appealing. Indeed, I often times seek out the challenge of stronger players, especially when I'm explicitly trying to get better at the game.
Losing constantly by playing vs players who are better than you provides a learning experience. You should find other players you can win against of course: you'll never learn to win if you keep losing. But losing teaches you what bad-habits you've formed from playing vs weaker players.
I think that's the key: losing all the time is unfun. But I can definitely take "losing for a whole week" or "losing for a whole month" in a row, especially if its for training. Finding players of lower skill, equal skill, and higher skill, is important.
This doesn't mesh with why lots of people play things. It's play. It might just be a nice way to pass the time. I would rather play basketball against someone my level than Steph Curry playing all out. I'm not playing to win or even to get better (getting better is fun, but isn't the point). I just want to have fun.
For many kinds of play, if you have to train for it, you may as well play something else.
The only reasons I do it - to have fun and relax - is already there, it doesn't get better the better I get since there is not top level cap. One example - I do climbing, in & out. If I climb 4c (french grade, which is very beginner level), say after some accident or other longer time off, its the same type of challenge as climbing routes at 5c/6a level after some training period. It really doesn't change anything for me, the challenge, fear of fall/death, pushing through it and sense of accomplishment is the same.
Maybe not the best mental wiring to achieve most in life in measurable aspects like career or net worth, but sure as hell I can be happy with little. It is great. I wish more people were like this.
In my sport, I train and enjoy competing as hard as I can.
I find the highs I enjoy from winning over a player who is a similar or higher skill level than me outweighs the disappointment of losing to someone I shouldn't. And it seems the better I get, the less often I seem to lose to people that I shouldn't. I enjoy seeing that progress and enjoy competing against better players.
I've lost close matches and still enjoyed every second too.
If I was playing against Steph Curry, I would try to come up with achievable goals, such as trying to defend well enough to force him to take a jumpshot instead of a layup, trying to make one of my own shots, trying to get him to fall for a pump-fake, trying to get a steal, trying not to fall over, etc.
Winning may not be, but there's always an achievable goal you can strive for.
So no podcasts/radio-or-tv shows then?
I can have a fun conversation with my two year old, but it's going to be pretty limited in depth.
I'm speculating here, but I think people who don't enjoy it on some level usually don't make it to that highest level in sport. Every top-level sportsman I can think of looks like they enjoy it.
I think there are times for both kind of play. It's annoying when people only play one kind of way. It's like beating you is all that matters to them.
> It's like beating you is all that matters to them
It does, which is weird considering this is not actually real life or real money; it's (can be anyway) a nice boardgame on a rainy sunday.
* Common house rules prolong the game. Don't use house rules.
* People forget the rule that when someone lands on an unowned property and doesn't buy it, the bank auctions it off.
A game of monopoly should take about an hour. It's almost always those exact house rules that people create that make the game drag.
Monopoly is a bad game though. Play Acquire instead.
That was fun! I learned and improved but also every point I won was a victory. Had I played against a professional I'd probably never have won a point, never have got better, and quickly got disheartened. There is just a limit past which the skill gap stops things being fun imo
After a while I managed to return the ball back and forth a couple of times, maybe they were going easy on me tho :)
If training isn't fun, then don't train up. Instead, learn to be satisfied with losing.
Which is fine: I'm satisfied when I play a decent game (but lose) against stronger players. I probably was going to lose anyway.
Being satisfied with your skill level, and learning to enjoy a game without necessarily improving at it, is important. For most of us, playing games is just a hobby. Our professions... the skill we ACTUALLY practice to get good at throughout our lives... takes priority over our hobbies.
Part of what makes a hobby a hobby... is the decision to remain weaker than professionals at that skill. I'll never become as good of a Harmonica Player as Magic Dick (who played "Wammer Jammer": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0q2Vy3fx2I). But that's fine, because Magic Dick is a professional Harmonica Player.
But when your level of skill gap with another player is too large, such that you won't learn anything by playing them and the entire match will be under their control 100% of the time, then there really isn't any point in playing them, and you'd be far better off—both for your enjoyment, and for your growth—to play against a weaker player.
It might be fun to have a sprinting match against your local state champion. It might even be fun to have a sprinting match against Usain Bolt. But there's no point to having a hypothetical sprinting match against The Flash. You wouldn't even leave the starting line before he crosses the finish line. There's no gradation of success available to you. You're simply crushed.
Likewise, there's no point, if you're a five-year-old, to trying to (seriously) arm-wrestle an adult. Your undeveloped strength will be overwhelmed without accomplishing the slightest movement of the opponent's arm, right at the beginning of the match, every time. You won't even get to practice the skill or build the muscles involved in arm-wrestling.
Unless you're playing in an exceptionally small or dying gaming community, most video games and online board games have good matchmaking services, which provides a quick-and-easy matchup to people of similar skill levels as you.
A lot of the discussions in this thread are about Overwatch (one of the most popular video games right now), or Chess (one of the most popular board games). You should have no issues finding opponents close to your skill in either of these games.
If there's an ELO matchmaking system in place, then the whole discussion—"How to play with people who are better than you"—is moot. So, for the purposes of discussion here, you should probably assume that there isn't such a system in place for the game in question. (The people who are bringing up examples from games with ELO presumably haven't read the article.)
That's one data point. But I'm sure valve or blizzard or any company with an online gaming community has stats on retention and knows who people want to play with in aggregate. And generally when you play online you get paired with someone with a similar MMR/ELO.
From this I infer that the statement from the article is generally true.
I'd rationalise it as creating richer neural connections for the topic you're trying to learn. It seems to embed the knowledge out of your "cache" into some deeper level, without which I tend to run out of ability to keep all these things in my head. In terms of practicing whatever you're learning, it's hard to say whether you should play against weaker, equal, or superior opponents; each have various arguments that can be made against them. I'd probably avoid weaker ones, in order to minimise false positive feedback.
I disagree strongly on that. If stronger players are avoiding complicated pins / forks / checkmates, the weaker player will NEVER experience these positions.
It is far, far, far more educational to play against a stronger player and learn the tricks of the trade. Getting pinned by an expert is a lesson. Getting a "Queen Trap" is a lesson. A Fork is a lesson. Etc. etc.
Watching players stronger than you avoid all those positions is completely, and utterly non-helpful. You need to get those mistakes "beaten out of you" so to speak, if you ever wish to get better at Chess.
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Now, observing chess can be helpful with computer-analysis. After downloading the pgn file of a high-level game, play through it yourself vs Stockfish (PC vs SCID is decent freeware to run the Stockfish engine with), and try to discover the traps that the high-level players innately avoided.
1. No holds barred. (I always lose, but nearly won once when they were very distracted.)
2. Like no holds barred, except I can take back my previous move && they sometimes offer “Are you sure that was the best move?” when I’ve done something especially wrong.
3. Them vs. them + me, where I have full access to their skills and knowledge. They suggest moves, and I can ask whether a move is/was a good move, what move they would make, etc. This unsurprisingly results in a 50/50 win rate.
This has been very useful for learning because it balances out the learning with just enough “winning” to keep the game fun.
Playing against someone much better than you sharpens your perception, reactions, everything in a way you can't get any other way. Bring it on!
dragontamer's example of Magnus Carlsen is a good one - he was in the top 1000 players in the world when he was 12, and become World Champion at 22. He's intuitively good at chess. The match he played to become World Champion the first time was fascinating because as soon as he could get to the point where the game was outside of what Vishy Anand had experience of he was pretty unstoppable. He's not someone normal players will ever beat. I think most chess players would like to play him because he's famous, but if you met someone unknown with the same level of ability most people just wouldn't play them except to learn. Few people would want to play that sort of person for fun. It just wouldn't be very enjoyable.
Eventually we all die. It's fun to play anyway.
In a less philosophical mood: standing against an overwhelming force can be exhilarating. I've felt something like that windsurfing in strong wind conditions.
Down to the specific question, losing always against someone you can't defeat is very good training for winning over others.
I don't always succeed but the pure thrill of trying to survive what is usually a virtual death sentence is something really powerful and when successful so exhilarating.
My brother-in-law talked about chess for years, I finally agreed to play him, and won both games. He's never brought it up again. It makes no sense to me.
Growing up, I was the youngest, so I generally lost at whatever games we played, and it never made me want to stop playing. When my significantly older brother came back home and stayed with us for awhile, we played chess regularly, and I lost a _lot_. But I kept playing, and when I finally got to the point where I won one out of three, it felt really good.
How much fun would I have missed out on if I hadn't kept playing?
Probably he was just diving in his next obsesion at the time.
Yes, it does. To them.
Anyone who is driven to get better at a game will be bored with playing with or against clearly worse players very quickly.
Most people don't like to play only against much weaker players, nor only against much stronger players.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/intrigue/Day90006PlayAgainst...
The typical approach that I also follow is that when I want to practice some technique I'm not well familiar with, I try it on white belts first, iron the obvious wrinkles out, and then I keep on going up the skill ladder until I'm able to execute it on my equals.
As I practice it against stronger and stronger opponents, I'm correcting increasingly subtle errors (that they're capable of using against me, while I could get away with them against weaker sparing partners).
It would be more difficult to try new stuff against someone of equal skill straight away, it makes much more sense to work your way up gradually.
It's obviously a physical, but still highly technical sport - and I imagine the same may hold true for many competitive activities.
The former one may be more clueless, but offers 100% ferocious defence without attempting any reasonable attacks of his (or her) own.
You can sort of see how progressing to the next step - from white to blue - is an inevitable setback of sorts.
Funnily enough, this phenomenon vaguely makes me think of the "trough of disillusionment / slope of enlightenment" syndrome (the hype cycle)
It's possible to beat weaker players more efficiently, but it requires consciously "playing down" to set simple traps and grab materiel quickly. Otherwise, a clueless opponent will disrupt "sophisticated" plays by accepting losing trades and ignoring threats. It lowers their chances of actually winning compared to a better player, but pushes the game towards a drawn out chase.
And yes, I think there's certainly some truth to the hype cycle comparison. They both remind me of the "four stages of competence", where people in the middle two stages of "conscious" execution can be slower and more uncertain than either trained or untrained instinct.
And you probably aren’t learning valuable lessons just losing to a much better player over and over again straight up. They won’t be the type of positions you’d get against players of your skill level. A much better player is likely getting decisive advantages out of the opening or early middle game, whereas especially at lower levels the middle game and endgame are much more important.
A decade ago Call of Duty 4 introduced an under-barrel grenade launcher for the m16 rifle as a way to get easy kills even if you could not aim. The devs called it 'first order optimal strategy' and players called it the noobtube. CoD4 did the right thing, every new player still gets stomped but it ends up being roughly 4-20 instead of 0-24. Game design on this matters.
I stopped playing Starcraft 2 after I realized that there is just no chance of getting anything done unless sinking massive time into it to train.
Randomness management is one of the main transferable skills from one game to another. Most good Poker players tend to be able to easily become good at other games with randomness.
I quite enjoyed the early days of Hearthstone, including the random factors in who won. But successive releases kept adding more randomness, and specifically uncontrollable randomness, until I quit the game. (It may have improved, and this didn't make it a bad game. It just wasn't for me anymore.)
Most people recognize that War is a bad game, because it's entirely random and has no element of choice. But a game like Mario Party is full of choice, and yet the random payouts are so large that skill is often irrelevant. Even near-perfect play can be dominated by random factors, and those random elements (specifically, bonus stars) aren't numerous enough to average out over the course of a game. That's what broke me on Hearthstone: the feeling that the randomness that was too scarce to average out over one session, too potent to avoid or overcome, and too unconstrained to strategize around.
At the far end of that spectrum, a game like poker consists almost entirely of strategizing around randomness, because the random factors are common enough to view statistically and only indirectly produce winners. And so the better poker player will win pretty consistently, and having fun across skill gaps starts to become difficult again. (Hence the popularity of moderate-randomness card games Euchre for social play.)
Randomness is often a good addition to games, especially in combination with hidden information. Not only does it make play across skill gaps worthwhile, it makes them more replayable. But there's a lot to be said for adding it carefully, in places where players can exert some measure of control.
I like chess, but I almost never play chess against anyone I know.
It's too skill-based, and (ironically) too interactive. The better player reliably wins, substantial handicaps warp the game, and at least at amateur levels the better player is often completely dominant. Not only is there no hope of winning, there's very little room to make a good play or try an interesting strategy. If two random people who are familiar with chess sit down to a game, it's very unlikely to be an interesting experience.
There are a lot of ways to mitigate this problem. There are "low skill" strategies that prevent blowouts without dominating (e.g. CoD4), rock-paper-scissors strategies (Stratego), graceful handicaps (Go), or satisfying play while losing (Catan). And of course, hidden information and randomness provide novelty in many of the most popular games like Poker.
Chess is not a bad game by any means, but it's not a party game either. "Accept that they're better and keep losing" is good advice if you want to improve at chess, but it does nothing to provide entertainment for mismatched players. There's nothing wrong with wanting a game that's fun, rather than just educational.
And what motivates the better player to be engaged?
We all know that learning and growth happens right at the edge. When one is stretching and that stretch makes a difference. Too far it is frustrating. No stretch no gain. I'm surprised Go was not mentioned so far since it is customary there to balance the strength of the players by giving a few stones advantage to the weaker balancing the play in a manner that both sides are challenged.
But this is Hacker News. So does this apply to the way we work? How are the challenges we face distributed in the team?
If the difference in skill is too high you won't learn anything from playing with them. What's worse - you might ingrain bad habits that let you occasionally win(that happened to me with one fighting game)
>Skill is an infinite treadmill: you can continuously get better at pretty much any subject from now till the end of time. Deciding when to get off the treadmill is just as important as deciding to stay on.
Agreed, but the speed in which you progress varies case by case basis.
>My inability to defeat the greatest players of a subject does NOT make the game less appealing. Indeed, I often times seek out the challenge of stronger players, especially when I'm explicitly trying to get better at the game.
if opponents are better than you, but not overwhelmingly so ,it is indeed one of better ways to train. It is a matter of mindset - you are playing to deliberately "git gud", but not necessarily win.
>Losing constantly by playing vs players who are better than you provides a learning experience. You should find other players you can win against of course: you'll never learn to win if you keep losing. But losing teaches you what bad-habits you've formed from playing vs weaker players.
This depends on aforementioned difference in skill, too high is prohibitive to learning. The latter part depends on how good game is proving feedback. Some games are great at that(chess, soulsborne), other are horrible(all blizzard games come to mind, DotA, Go). It is very hard to improve in latter group of games without deliberately analysing your past games. For example in Go your mistake might be made really far back into the game, but you are seeing it's effect just now. In chess - it is way simpler to just walk back the history of moves in memory to find the mistake, or at least start spotting the wrong decisions.
>I think that's the key: losing all the time is unfun. But I can definitely take "losing for a whole week" or "losing for a whole month" in a row, especially if its for training. Finding players of lower skill, equal skill, and higher skill, is important.
Agreed, but there is one exception - games with randomness built into them - this includes matchmade team games. With randomness, losing when you are really ahead feels way more punishing, and in team games it is sometimes impossible to carry your team to win - even if you are literally the best player in the match by overwhelming margin.
if you train in something, you aren't playing. Training is actually the total opposite of play; you need to do things that are not fun but are beneficial for your goal, and it sucks. You have to do a lot of tedious study and memorization to get better at chess beyond a point, or spend a lot of time in a fighting game's training mode just to be able to consistently do moves and combos on demand.
I think with videogames one of the worries I have is people are now viewing them as work they have to train for; we are creating a professional class of gamers, and whenever we do so eventually players become spectators instead
Things like that are fun for a subset of people. I played competitive smash bros. melee for years. I always had a separate crt tv in my room ready to go, and I would put on music, or a podcast, etc, and just practice things. It was relaxing after a long day and that practice eventually made me much better in real matches- winning matches is a huge high.
Chess is different but also the same. I'm slowly learning theory, openings, etc, and it's quite fascinating.
> or spend a lot of time in a fighting game's training mode just to be able to consistently do moves and combos on demand.
That's -why- these games are fun to play and spectate. What separates bad from decent from good players is how consistently they can apply technical skill under nerve-wracking situations, such as being 1 game in a set away from getting knocked out of a tournament. Stuff like daigo's parry at EVO 2004 was exhilarating precisely because of the technical skill required, and the fact that he had to practice things like that.
I find training to be fun and engaging - i find bettering myself to be fun! There is a difference between going into practice mode and grinding combos, and just dueling someone with intent of 'i'll try to block each low mixup this game', or 'i'll try to pushing each wakeup'.
You are having fun, with a small extra goal added, and you don't mind losing - as long as you don't fail your extra goal.
You have to understand, you are making the hardcore fallacy; you assume everyone will stick to the game no matter what and take whatever abuse or steps they need to git gud. It doesn't work that way; what happens over time is the better people raise the skill floor by driving weaker players out.
And increasingly the skill floor is getting ridiculous. Overwatch University on reddit recommends players post videos of matches for point by point analysis on how to get better, and half the posts are just frustration in dealing with the drudgery of playing so many matches to even climb.
This has nothing to do with skill floors or ceilings.
Then play newer or different games. Overwatch has been out for a while by now. Chess has been out for a rather long time by now.
> The issue is that when you play chess, all you can play against are wanna-be grandmasters who drive the skill floor up to the point where you need to make a heroic effort just to be mediocre.
On chess.com you start at 800 ELO, on lichess.org you start at 1500(?) ELO and rapidly decline if you lose many games, until you get around where you should be. You do not need to make "heroic effort" in order to start gaining ELO. You do need to learn basic chess theory like how much the pieces are worth, and some strategy, etc, but it's really not that bad if you genuinely like chess.
> It doesn't work that way; what happens over time is the better people raise the skill floor by driving weaker players out.
Alternatively, people who play push the game forward and make exciting breakthroughs, keeping the game fresh. No one is forcing you to play a game that you don't like. There's no point in shaking our fists at the sky because we didn't start playing a game right when it came out.
Games are fascinating when they -don't- explicitly cater to new players. TF2 is a hard game, yet it's one of my most played games at ~1700 hours. Why? Because I was able to improve and because it has a high skill ceiling (and floor) for certain playstyles.
Pressing Shift to rocket up as Pharah is totally boring compared to learning how to Rocket Jump as the soldier. Learning how to do that took me weeks, yet it's now one of my favorite aspects of TF2. I have hundreds of hours in tf2 just on jump maps- something that wouldn't be possible if TF2 were designed to have as little skill floor as possible (like overwatch).
TF2 doesn't seem to have this option and thus new players don't get much of a chance to learn because they're immediately thrown in with people with 1700 hours of gameplay and don't get a chance to learn the necessary skillset incrementally by climbing a ladder.
However I disagree that people don't get a chance to learn. Unlike chess, tf2 is a team game, so even if the teams aren't super balanced it's still possible to play. Unless one team is absolutely stomping the other, which happens more frequently ever since tf2 made some matchmaking changes in the Meet Your Match update- that's a different can of worms.
Is Overwatch truly a game that you fundamentally enjoy, win-or-lose ? Or is Overwatch the kind of game where you can only enjoy it if you win?
If playing more Overwatch is "drudgery" to you, then perhaps you should quit. You should enjoy the games you play. I am serious: there's no real reason to stick to a game if it is making you feel bad. We should play games for enjoyment.
> you assume everyone will stick to the game no matter what and take whatever abuse or steps they need to git gud.
My assumption is that a good game must be enjoyed by the "losers".
Bowling, Golf, and races like 5k, Marathon, and video-game speedrunning, have no "losers". Its just people aiming to improve their own score over and over again. Maybe these games are more suited to your personality.
I have a 14-minute Super Mario World (SNES) speedrun (11-exit). Its not world-class or anything, but I did have to practice and study to get to that point. So its a thing I'm proud of.
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But yes, I truly do enjoy competitive games that I've chosen to play. BlazBlue, Super Smash Bros, and Competitive Tetris, and Puyo Puyo... I've played these games a lot because I enjoy them, win or lose.
Frankly, you are NOT going to get good at a competitive game unless you enjoy losing a LOT. The best players in the world are incredibly talented, with insane reaction times. And now that I'm over the age of 30, my reaction time has begun to decline, so I'll never be as fast as I used to be. Chances are, I'll never be a world-class fighting game player, its too late for me. Reaction times peak at around age 24 by the way.
That doesn't change my enjoyment of Blazblue or Super Smash Bros. But its something I've accepted in life. I still have a lot of fun playing the game even if I'm locked-out of being a world class player.
The best players I know, and the fastest improving players I know, all review their gameplay and take notes on the mistakes they made. They watch other high skill / pro players and take notes on what they do. They practice PERFECTLY, over and over and over (i.e. executing a combo flawlessly 20 times in a row, if you make a mistake, start over. Now do something else for an hour, then flawlessly do the combo 20 times in a row again). They find good players to play with in high stakes situations, such as tournaments or money matches.
Most people don't improve very much because they aren't actively trying to improve. I know many people who are at roughly where they were a year ago, or just marginally higher.
For example, in martial arts an important skill for a beginner is recognizing openings in an opponent's defense. However, an experienced fighter has few openings (so the beginner gets less practice) and can often defend against an attack even if they were open (so its difficult for the beginner to recognize when they successfully identified an opening).
At the early stage it's often a better teaching tool for the experienced fighter to purposely use a strategy that tends to create openings (e.g. by using more aggressive strategies rather than counter attacks), to fight with a handicap, or even to purposely leave themselves open and allow the beginner to score a (non-damaging) hit.
It's an excellent system for several reasons. Most obviously, it largely preserves the flow of a "normal" game, whereas something like handicapped chess has completely different opening play. But another major benefit is that it remains a good way to practice for equally-skilled play. The skills used to overcome or capitalize on a handicap transfer effectively to playing out a weak or strong position in a neutral match. There are relatively few handicap-specific strategies to play, and "irrational" play is generally less rewarding in handicapped games than simply mismatched ones.
(I doubt this applies in martial arts, but in many games a heavily-outmatched player is actually rewarded for bad play. If their odds of winning on performance are bad enough, they'll succeed more often by making surprising or high-variance moves and hoping for an error. There's an excellent story from DF Wallace about how as a teen he won local tennis tournaments by simply playing safe and waiting for unforced errors, but actually had less upward potential than the people he beat. When unforced errors became scarce, he had no strong play to fall back on.)
Interestingly, the handicap system could be extended beyond nine stones without losing too much elegance, but by tradition it isn't. It's understood that across any greater skill gap, it's essentially impossible to play a real and educational game. The weaker player won't be able to trace why a move is good or causes them to lose, and so handicapped games should be replaced with either direct lessons, or play tailored to education instead of competition. It sounds a lot like the situation in martial arts, and I suspect holds across a great many other games and competitions.
It's much more enjoyable for everyone, in my opinion, to play by the same rules as the group, but judge your own performance by a different set of rules that you keep in your own head. Maybe try to beat your own previous score, or set yourself a personal challenge -- something like "take one of my opponent's pieces" or "make the longest word in the game".
It's entirely possible to enjoy playing a game that you have little chance of winning, it just requires some creativity.
One of the best games for this is Concordia, where you don’t count up the points until the end. You always feel that you have a chance. Once you get fairly good however, you can scan the board state and do some rough guesstimating to see who is in the lead.
Other games can be quite brutal. You make one wrong move and you know you’re in for 2.5 hrs of pain and there’s nothing you can do about it.
Lost Cities is a simple two-player card game where you have to take risks in laying out your cards with incomplete information.
In the end the points are tallied up. The calculation is somewhat complicated (or at least the number of points you will get are not immediately obvious at a glance), to the point where my partner and me both frequently thought we had clearly lost, but after tallying up the points it turns out we had won (or were at least much closer to winning than we thought).
I like the game but that somehow feels, well, at least weird. Especially since I first played this game on my phone. There is this really lovely implementation of it as an app that’s a real joy to play and feels very tactile and pleasant to use, much like the physical game. But one important difference is that the points are tallied up and shown for both you and your opponent as you play.
That to me makes the play at least feel more involved and more calculating. It feels quite different and I think I like it better but maybe that has also something to do with the game being very quick and it also tends to be well balanced. If I had to suffer through long stretches of time knowing I will lose … well that might be different.
Link to the board game: http://riograndegames.com/games.html?id=126 Link to the app: https://lostcitiesapp.com
I mean, why continue at that point? That just sounds silly.
I have seen people win without ever building a third settlement.
If you choose a weak initial position, the expansion-first player gains an advantage over the city-first player, especially in a 3-player game. And they will both know that your only option is a card-first stealth victory. The latter is usually only viable in a very balanced 4-player game.
If you don't understand probability for 2d6 dice rolls, yeah, you're going to have a bad time in a lot of games, some of them lasting 2.5 hours or more. And if you haven't bothered learning that, why would you learn from the stronger opponents that you play?
The latter 20% is suddenly competitive and full of bullshit, and maybe by chance feels completely unfair but it’s short, has lots of hidden information, and everyone is usually happy to play it through even if they lose.
It’s a really good game design. Even if not especially strategic.
That said, not all games can support this mental model. Chess for instance I always find disheartening to play against much better players. A 600 ELO point difference in chess basically means you will never win, and it becomes futile, and crushing.
But after losing a dozen times with that guy, you play against someone else and it's you that crush your opponent, so not so futile.
I do improve playing against better players than me. Like 200 or 300 this year. Maybe it's because I'm more focused when the opponent has a better rating.
Playing one game sure, playing a hundred games.. maybe. Some games are built with a design philosophy that make it difficult to win in a very un-enjoyable way. There's a reason we moved on from restarting the whole game when you died in Prince of Persia to a more streamlined experience in modern games.
So yeah i lost, but it made me better. As long as you are aware of your skill set vs. someone else's and you wont let it consume you i don't see it as a bad thing (assuming the other player is not a complete jerk).
If I was to play tennis against a professional, it wouldn't really be tennis, it would be a game of 'can I get anywhere near to returning their first shot'.
I'd have to play that 'mini-game' for a long time before I could play proper tennis with such a person ( where tactics of the rally come in ).
Obviously in reality the professional player would ease up - cos actually just hitting balls and watching me pick them up isn't fun for them either.
Some games are more naturally balanced that others - computer game designers often put huge effort in this area.
Really successful games like football ( soccer to some ) have great balance built in. That's why the FA cup has small teams occasionally beating big teams - to score a goal, you typically have to win a series of reasonably balanced encounters - even Messi can be tackled by me.
If you look at professional teams, most of the time defenders win the 1:1 battle. That's why in 90 minutes a win of 3-0 is a good score!
Obviously in an actual game, it's more complex than that - a lot of defending is about denying opportunity to shoot rather than out and out tackling.
I reckon I could get in the way on occasion...
Remember the attacker has the disadvantage of having to move the ball, not just run, while the defender is free to move without the ball.
That's, in part, what creates the balance.
Unless you played soccer at least semi-professionally in some small league team for at least some part of your not so distant past, there is just no way you are gonna win a 1v1 with Messi, either by committing a foul or not.
If you watch some scrim games during the off season, you can find games were a top tier team plays against minor-er league teams, and you can see the difference in skills. It's like they play two different games.
It's like me in my 5th year of coding claiming I could out-code Linus Torvalds...like what?!?!
I don't know you but come on, we're talking about the 2nd greatest living striker (Ronaldo is first IMO) out of the most popular sport for 8 billion people, and you think you could hold a candle to him? After he has repeatedly embarassed the worlds' most athletic, well-studied and trained defenders?
A couple of years later, after going separate ways, we met up at a pool hall. After a few games, it wasn’t even close.
Neither of us had played much for a few years. The difference was my friend’s sharp skills had deteriorated, whereas my advantage had often been from taking “creative” higher-risk/higher-reward shots—a “skill” that didn’t suffer as much from lack of practice.
That's also my threshold for fun. The more you can artificially minmax the game, the less fun it is for me. I'm happy to play Scrabble, but if the opponent spent time learning the dictionary rather than expanding their vocabulary, I don't see the point.
I normally like playing better players because it forces me to learn and stop using lazy habits that work on worse players, but it's hard to learn anything useful when I'm getting crushed so bad like that. Instead, reflecting and continuing to play with people near my level until I improve enough to revisit that player is a better option for personal growth.
Still, there is nothing so instructive as a spanking in a balanced game. If I played 100 games vs that guy... There are little roadblocks the whole way that I can learn and conquer, which would RARELY be exposed by another bad player on my own level.
Here's all the ways you need to play in a TvP gasless expand build: can you scout their base with an SCV? Can you identify it's ranged-dragoon 2gate (and not reaver drop or early 3rd or DT rush or air rush)? Can you get your bunker up in time to prevent the goon rush? Can you repair the bunker constantly with the right number of SCVs? Can you do all this while teching to siege mode and tanks? Can you keep those tanks alive if Toss dives with 4 goons to pick the tank? Can you then get your third base up, which is just as technical as holding the initial goon rush?
Playing vs way better players than you is the fastest way to improve, but it's also the most ego-crushing, so you simply need to leave ego at the door and acknowledge your skill-set is lower and your experience is lower. Great lesson for life!
That said, I've also enjoyed such games immensely with no handicap, despite no prospect of winning at all. In most games you can have some partial success and psychological reward despite losing the game.
It's different from a game like risk in that way. If you lose a skirmish in risk there's basically nothing you can learn from that since the amount of random involved just obscures any influence you have yourself. At the end of a game of risk I'm sat there having no idea what I did wrong, and no idea how to do better next time.
Like I remember when I was in a bowling league as a kid that was just whoever signed up to be in it at that one bowling alley.
We had a guy in the league that eventually went Pro and I remember watching him score his first perfect 300 game in person way back then, but there was people like me that were just ok. I think the highest my average got up to was around 130, but i can't really remember. I know I had a 197 game once. In contrast, the future Pro's average was something like 230 (I think), a full 100 points difference.
But my team would sometimes play against the future Pro's team. I'm pretty sure his team always creamed us, even with the handicap, but the handicap at least made it so we were able to beat other teams that were significantly better than us. And if we consistently played well enough we were beating other people our handicap would change.
It made it so there was actually some tension from both sides, and a desire for both sides to play as best as they could, instead of the obviously better player to maybe let things slip a tiny bit or for us to get frustrated and just toss the ball down there without trying.
It also made it so you didn't have a teammate that got too sore if your skill levels were significantly different. Like if I was actually terrible but was paired to be on a team with someone decent, they wouldn't hate me because I would always make us lose a matchup. Instead my handicap would make it so we could still be somewhat competitive.
Granted you were ultimately always competing with yourself, trying to get a better score, but it's another layer that adds to the fun of the game. I haven't been a part of a league in at least 25 years, but sometimes I miss it.
And even in this setup there's still tiers. Like it's not like anyone ever said "yeah, let's send this average for a kid player to a professional league championship and see how well they do!", but there's different skill levels for the players in every tier as well.
In high school I was playing chess with someone better than me and my plan was to trade equal pieces as much as possible because I am bound to make worse/stupid mistakes than more he does and because of that I wanted to move end game as fast as possible.
It actually worked and it ended in tie! I still remember the end game, it was amazing
http://prntscr.com/q5z36e (it was roughly like this, can't remember exact positions)
I was white, I think the last move was I moved my pawn and declared tie
If you are 'winning' (here this works for your idea of winning), it's good to trade pieces to get to the end game quicker while retaining the advantage.
Another thing is to play people you don't know and find new playing partners often. That helps you avoid getting stuck in a rut.
This must be a joke, right? What's the point of playing games? To feel good about oneself?!
It also allows the stronger player to improve.
https://cognitioneducation.me/2013/07/25/a-time-and-a-place-...
This seems an odd thing to say. The only "manual dexterity" you need is to be able to throw the dice.
A Dexterity game is a category of board games, and they all involve your ability to physically manipulate components in a way where you could potentially screw it up by misjudging the action you take, is my understanding.
There's no way to throw dice in a way where it doesn't give you some sort of result, even if it's not the result you want. If that's all it took to be a Dexterity game, than tens or hundreds of thousands of games with dice in them are now Dexterity games (and currently on sites like BoardGameGeek, they're not).
I don't let them win. I of course tell them what good moves are (and why). Perhaps I should lose on purpose to get them hooked?
PS: One of the cool aspects of Othello is that it looks like if both players play a perfect game, it ends in a draw.
https://www.amazon.com/Finite-Infinite-Games-James-Carse/dp/...
jiu jitsu is a good example of this. the belt rankings indicate experience/skill and give you an idea of where people are in training. if i just steamroll day-ones it is helpful to a degree. people of similar experience will give me a good fight that will allow us both to make mistakes that we can both capitalize on. but if i get manhandled by higher ranks i can see the possibilities and get ideas for piecing together holes in my game.
This confused me for a bit. Snakes and Ladders is an orthogame; one selects a winner based on agreed-upon rules.
For instance, capitalism is a game that most players assume we'll just keep playing. How do you deal with some players having an advantage? Currently, the advantage only compounds (literally, ie compound interest). What if instead, the game became more difficult for those players, as discussed in the article?
To get back to the point, what the author describing is also egalitarian. I think people are generally more interested in it with a game because of the finite setting. Golf handicaps are a perfect example that would have fit well into the article. People get more wary as the scope expands.
In the theoretical game of "capitalism" this sounds like a good idea, but in the real world a government that imposes these kinds of game restrictions through something like taxes only forces the advantaged players to pull out of the "game" completely (a nett negative for those reliant on their advantage long term) and move their advantage to another "game".
This isn't necessarily a bad thing though, so long as the vast majority of players still in the game have enough resource to continue playing comfortably.
This would be true only if profits are the only motivation for humans to do anything... and that is not true.
Also, currently, there is no other "game".
Unlike other companies, though, Apple has now grown to a size where we can say that they have a very strong advantage in this "game", the American market, but there exists a strategy such that they're able to maximise their reward output by switching "games". Since they're a rational player they do so, and switch their tax jurisdiction, or "game", to Ireland, who plays by a different set of rules.
This isn't a perfect example because I don't think the United States penalises companies based on their performance through tax, but if Apple is already doing this in such a situation what would happen if the United States did implement a progressive tax rate on companies [0]? Now consider how many individuals rely on the existence of Apple within the American "game", and how many may or may not be affected by a full move out of said "game" (again, a silly example I know, but I hope it makes the point clear).
[0] The US may actually do this already and I'm just not aware of it. If so, feel free to correct me.
Given that there is plenty of evidence that relative deprivation is a major source of disutility, getting them to exclude themselves from the social milieu in which other people exist would be a net win, though less than that of them staying and complying. But, objectivist fantasy novels aside, there's not a lot of evidence that that's a significant effect in the real world.
The people that are actually most successful in modern society understand the role society plays in the utility they derive from success a lot better than some of the wannabes that imagine how they would deal with similar success.
If a ruleset becomes too onerous (which there is evidence for in modern settings like Zimbabwe or Venezuela) then a player may decide that the utility of the society is not worth the loss in resource and remove themselves from a game which enforces such a ruleset. In all other cases though I agree completely with your insight.
I don't believe, for instance, that farmers suiciding after losing their farm should be likened to sore losers.
Skimming is useful, because you don't necessarily want to read an entire page if you're looking for one thing. Wikipedia pages are an example of where you might want to skim until you find the relevant section you're looking for.
In fact I skim many articles on HN to decide if they're worth reading or not. If they are, then I go back and slowread the entire thing before making a comment.
But, I am winning at losing. Nobody can take that away from me.