Librem 5 USA
puri.sm
puri.sm
Upd: quote from the Purism forum:
"First hardware kill switches; first replaceable cellular modem and Wi-Fi/ Bluetooth (on M.2 cards); first smart card reader (for 2FF OpenPGP card); first running 100% free software; only current phone to offer convergence as PC without special hardware"
https://forums.puri.sm/t/will-the-librem-5-be-a-white-elepha...
> The other [problem] is that call audio isn't routed to the speaker. I haven't personally hit this, I'm just using a data-only SIM and can't remember the last time I actually used a phone to make a voice call.
In addition, the backers getting the phone now were explicitly told that the software isn't polished yet, and that they are getting beta hardware. The backers were offered also to be allowed to wait for a later batch if they wanted to.
It definitely is not ready to be a daily driver, don't get me wrong. But folks who wanted it early knew that.
That's like arguing you have a functioning heart because it's connected to your veins but can't pump blood.
But to your original comment, I'd argue it's not. Saying it can't make phone calls implies there's a much more severe issue than it apparently was.
Edit: it looks like the person also directly replied to another comment of yours, so I'll add that here:
" > and of course this "bug" hasn't been fixed
You can hear call audio if you use CI images since a few days ago already. Last rough edges are being sorted out right now before finally packaging it all into PureOS."
"In addition, the backers getting the phone now were explicitly told that the software isn't polished yet, and that they are getting beta hardware. The backers were offered also to be allowed to wait for a later batch if they wanted to."
> Q: If I receive the Librem 5 from one of the first batches, will I have a fully functional phone?
> A: Yes! Even the very earliest batches will be capable smartphone, including a modern web browser and core cell phone functionality.
That's false, the phone requires non-free software for things like the modem to work.
You don't usually say "printing requires non-free software" just because your USB printer runs some non-free firmware inside, even though it's technically true.
Some people (me as well) do. It is very frustrating that we have this legacy thing where any radio devices are ‘protected’ like this.
Also, counting the modem as making the whole device non-free would require you to count plenty of other things as well, such as microSD cards, accelerometers, audio codecs, SIM cards, even USB-C cables, as all of those things (and more) contain non-free blobs inside. In my opinion it's not a useful stance to hold if you care about freedom - even FSF doesn't do that.
If it's going to run a Broadcom/Qualcomm binary anyway to function, what do you really gain?
Someone who's concerned about this level of eavesdropping I would think shouldn't bother with cellular devices at all?
With this way, they can mainline the entire set up and not force non-free dependencies.
Intel recently sold their cellular modem division to Apple for $1B. That would be an example organization capable of producing a baseband.
So you need to reverse engineer the chip, write your own software for it, and reflash it. But after reflashing it will no longer be FCC approved because some of the FCC requirements were implemented in software. So it will need to go through the FCC approval process again which can be very expensive.
The alternative would be to create your own chip from scratch but that is even more expensive.
So we're stuck with isolating it instead. At least you can make sure it has no access to your stored data, camera or microphone.
IMO an android app runtme would be essential for any of these efforts to be comparable to Lineage. Anybody working on that?
I've seen 3 projects working on the runtime (in 3 different ways with different pros/cons).
It's unlikely today's Google is going to be interested in seeing these efforts succeed. So an Android app runtime would likely only really run software from 5+ years ago well. Better to focus on making a really solid Linux mobile experience, IMO.
F-Droid exists. People installing APKs exist. In some cases these options are better than literal nothing, and especially if momentum builds around these it's possible that app developers may notice.
For lineage, it is popular to install Google Play anyway. I guess that to be a copyright violation that Google looks the other way for and if a real world competitor did this they would crack down.
- physical, normal headphone port
- Swappable battery
- microsd card slot
- 1st class LineageOS support
I think Samsung Galaxy S5 is the newest phone that has all four of the features, with irblaster and waterproofing as nice extras.
At some point the existing stock of phones with the features you want is going to wear out unless somebody makes some new ones.
And crucially, every time you buy an Android phone and flash another OS on it, you just paid for an Android phone, reinforcing the monopoly and generating profit for companies pushing the Android platform.
The correct solution is to refuse to buy a phone that ships with Android.
LineageOS and GrapheneOS are based on AOSP, which is an open source project not really "made by an ad company". I agree with your latter point about supporting their hardware and typically buy used phones/computer for that same reason.
How many people they can assign for serious Android security audit (>million lines of code)?
So, better be realistic about resources. Lineage even used Google DNS & Google internet checkers a lot of time, and probably uses it now. And I even don't started talking about general Google Play store apps, sending user data to Chinese servers is "normal" now.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...
So why is it important what phone he recommends?
1: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...
That said, I'm probably going to go for the PinePhone as I just don't see the value add of the Librem. $2k is nuts for the dubious value of assembling a device in the U.S. (both because of our current <cough> issues and the fact that the chips, the things you need to be most worried about being compromised, would still be produced elsewhere... so you're paying a lot of money for a placebo) I think the Pine approach makes more sense cost/benefit-wise: just get a Linux phone version 1 built, worry about adding the sun and the moon later. But I can understand that there are those who look at the Pine as being too low-end feature-wise and are willing to pay up for the Librem.
$150 is fairly comparable
https://store.pine64.org/?product=pinephone-braveheart-limit...
Any Android phone you get pretty much gets stuck on a version of Linux that will never be upgraded.
The Librem 5 also physically separates out the Radio and WiFi, and allows you to cut power to those, the camera, and the microphone.
https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
The company practices a lot of shady business. Their "phone" that they are so proudly claiming to be releasing to backers cannot place phone calls, the camera doesn't work, and there is no power management.
> To turn on your Librem 5 disconnect it from a power source and hold down the power button until it turns on. Currently calling is established (e.g. both sides connect fine) but audio is not routed (no voice heard or sent), this will be a few days until the bug is fixed.
They shipped out a "phone" that can't place phone calls.
edit:
The reason why this is significant is because not being able to make phone calls with a phone is not the type of "bug" that slips through the cracks. The company released the phone despite it not being able to make phone calls, and if this was simply a bug that could be fixed "in a few days", all logic and reasoning suggests that they would have fixed the problem and then shipped the phones to preserve the integrity of their brand and prevent negative brand perception.
The fact that they shipped out a phone that can't place phone calls is highly suggestive that there is a bigger issue with the phone and that they are under a time crunch to show the backers that they have accomplished something with all the funding that they have received.
They also shipped a devkit, whose screen did not work. But a software update made it work. Same here. This is the only phone, where updates make it better, not worse.
I don't know how you can even begin to support this claim. My phone updates apply a bunch of security patches, which by definition make the phone better and more secure.
This is certainly the only "phone" that literally can't place phone calls. If this was a minor issue that could be addressed by a simple software patch in a timely manner, they would have all the reasons to do that and ship the phone after fixing such a glaring flaw.
Q: If I receive the Librem 5 from one of the first batches, will I have a fully functional phone?
A: Yes! Even the very earliest batches will be capable smartphone, including a modern web browser and core cell phone functionality.
The expectation is that you'd receive a "fully functional phone". Until an update has been released with a fix to the not being able to place calls problem, this expectation is not met.
As I said in another thread, that point still stands. Birch will be a fully usable device. Shipping announcement explicitly stated that there will be only a basic, initial release of software that doesn't include everything and that it will improve in time.
What opinions?
> As I said in another thread, that point still stands.
No, the point doesn't stand. Once again, here's a link to purism FAQ: https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-batch-faq/
It explicitly states this:
> Q: If I receive the Librem 5 from one of the first batches, will I have a fully functional phone?
> A: Yes! Even the very earliest batches will be capable smartphone, including a modern web browser and core cell phone functionality.
The FAQ says that the earliest batches will be capable smartphones and will have core cell phone functionality. Purism says that phones from "one of the first batches" will be capable smartphones will all core cell phone functionality.
There is no way you can try and do mental gymnastics to justify your apparent belief that purism delivered on this. There is a huge difference between a device requiring some polish and finishing touches and delivering a phone:
1. That can't make phone calls
2. Has no power management so the battery lasts less than an hour
3. Doesn't have working cameras
4. Can't be charged while powered on
Simply contradicting the facts and providing no additional context or reasoning does not an argument make.
Those sentences are true. There's nothing preventing that hardware to become a perfectly capable smartphone in near future.
>What opinions?
https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/e2mqgb/i_have_my_li... https://azdle.net/2019/11/comparing-apples-and-gnomes/ https://0net.io/1EwAh4KUfGgRw1re7uyrmTUWKZYV9SHVcW/
...plus bunch of comments made by phone owners in various places, like Reddit or Hacker News, or directly via mail. I haven't seen anyone expressing any kind of regret that they got their phones too soon.
That's dishonest, misleading, and you know it. You are trying to do linguistic gymnastics to justify/hand wave away the fact that the "phone" is far from what is promised. The FAQ didn't say that the phones will be capable smartphones "in near future". The FAQ said that the phones will be shipped in that state.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/e2mqgb/i_have_my_li...
> Right now I am not releasing a video of calling working, because it exposes the number of the caller. The only other phone I have available is my fiancees, so frankly I am not posting that on Reddit.
> Update: you know what? I'm done. The fact that some of you think I'm a shill...that's why no one else with a phone now isn't here.
People are accusing this poster of being a shill, because he/she made it sound as if calling is working even though everyone knows that it's not. People are really destroying the phone in that thread, so I am not sure if that was the best example to post.
I am a little surprised you publicly shared these reviews, because if these are the good reviews, I can't imagine what the bad ones would be like. The cognitive dissonance of having spent hundreds of dollars on what effectively amounts to a brick is really palpable.
https://azdle.net/2019/11/comparing-apples-and-gnomes/
> Expectations
Review starts off with 3 paragraphs of expectation management and apologist statements softening the reader up for what follows.
> Power management is basically unimplemented.
> The battery dies quickly and (because the power goes straight to the CPU) takes a long time to charge.
> The other is that call audio isn't routed to the speaker
> The cameras don't seem to be enabled yet. Installing & opening up Cheese, I just get a message saying "No device found".
> The phone is chonky.
> The data connection seems to be rather slow. fast.com says I'm getting 130 Kbps
> I can't change the "network mode", every time I try I get an "Access Denied" message, so I'm not sure it's actually using 4G.
> It takes 10-12 seconds of holding the power button before it gives any indication that's it turning on.
> In the settings of the Librem 5, I can set multiple alarm clocks, and specify how to repeat and on which days of the week. So far so good, this is on par with most phones. Problem is, when the time comes, no sound emits from the device, and not even a reminder is visible on the screen.
https://0net.io/1EwAh4KUfGgRw1re7uyrmTUWKZYV9SHVcW/
> The first impression when unpacking was, that it is thick and heavy. In fact it is so thick that my kids make fun of me.
> The on-off button doesn't always work reliably
> When I can't get it to start with the on/off button, I usually open the device, and remove the battery for a moment.
> Unfortunately the phone froze during the initial setup when trying to connect to the office wifi
> The bluetooth configuration doesn't work at all.
> But that I didn't receive regular text messages is bothering me. A friend sent some to me for testing, and none arrived.
> Even before I wanted to place a call, I read in the forum that there is a problem with audio routing. I didn't even get that far. I cannot initiate a call, because below the dial buttons there is a message warning me that there is no voice-capable modem.
> For the first three days, after every reboot, the system date was reverted to February 2019.
> In the settings of the Librem 5, I can set multiple alarm clocks, and specify how to repeat and on which days of the week. So far so good, this is on par with most phones. Problem is, when the time comes, no sound emits from the device, and not even a reminder is visible on the screen.
> Whether the screen is on or off doesn't seem to make a difference. The device gets very, very hot. It is no surprise that the battery doesn't last very long. It doesn't even last an hour.
> But when it is turned on, I don't really know if it is slowly charging or slowly discharging. > When I plug in the phone to my notebook, the notebook often looses internet connectivity.
> As a test I installed my favorite desktop Bitcoin wallet: Electrum. Unfortunately it didn't start.
> I hate to say it, but at the current state, this phone is even less usable than both my previous linux phones in their initial condition.
> I know what to expect from an early pre-release, and these early owners seem to know it as well. Otherwise I doubt they would opt into receiving an early batch months before actual mass produced one.
There is another possibility, that you seem to simply discard but without presenting any reasons as to why. And that is, that Purism mislead, lied, and under delivered. Your own source says
> I hate to say it, but at the current state, this phone is even less usable than both my previous linux phones in their initial condition. Maybe I am too optimistic in wanting to use the Librem 5 as my main and only phone from the start.
Even though Purism literally said that people would receive fully functional phones even in one of the first batches:
> Q: If I receive the Librem 5 from one of the first batches, will I have a fully functional phone?
> A: Yes! Even the very earliest batches will be capable smartphone, including a modern web browser and core cell phone functionality.
This is a list of things wrong with the phone off your own sources. Can you point out what this brick can actually even do? Browse web at 130 Kbps for an hour before the battery dies? How do you justify the brick being anything but completely unusable in its current state?
How do you justify the total lack of power management as a "minor bug"? Or any of the problems below as a matter of fact.
> Power management is basically unimplemented.
> The battery dies quickly and (because the power goes straight to the CPU) takes a long time to charge.
> The other is that call audio isn't routed to the speaker
> The cameras don't seem to be enabled yet. Installing & opening up Cheese, I just get a message saying "No device found".
> The phone is chonky.
> The data connection seems to be rather slow. fast.com says I'm getting 130 Kbps
> I can't change the "network mode", every time I try I get an "Access Denied" message, so I'm not sure it's actually using 4G.
> It takes 10-12 seconds of holding the power button before it gives any indication that's it turning on.
> In the settings of the Librem 5, I can set multiple alarm clocks, and specify how to repeat and on which days of the week. So far so good, this is on par with most phones. Problem is, when the time comes, no sound emits from the device, and not even a reminder is visible on the screen.
https://0net.io/1EwAh4KUfGgRw1re7uyrmTUWKZYV9SHVcW/
> The first impression when unpacking was, that it is thick and heavy. In fact it is so thick that my kids make fun of me.
> The on-off button doesn't always work reliably
> When I can't get it to start with the on/off button, I usually open the device, and remove the battery for a moment.
> Unfortunately the phone froze during the initial setup when trying to connect to the office wifi
> The bluetooth configuration doesn't work at all.
> But that I didn't receive regular text messages is bothering me. A friend sent some to me for testing, and none arrived.
> Even before I wanted to place a call, I read in the forum that there is a problem with audio routing. I didn't even get that far. I cannot initiate a call, because below the dial buttons there is a message warning me that there is no voice-capable modem.
> For the first three days, after every reboot, the system date was reverted to February 2019.
> In the settings of the Librem 5, I can set multiple alarm clocks, and specify how to repeat and on which days of the week. So far so good, this is on par with most phones. Problem is, when the time comes, no sound emits from the device, and not even a reminder is visible on the screen.
> Whether the screen is on or off doesn't seem to make a difference. The device gets very, very hot. It is no surprise that the battery doesn't last very long. It doesn't even last an hour.
> But when it is turned on, I don't really know if it is slowly charging or slowly discharging. > When I plug in the phone to my notebook, the notebook often looses internet connectivity.
> As a test I installed my favorite desktop Bitcoin wallet: Electrum. Unfortunately it didn't start.
> I hate to say it, but at the current state, this phone is even less usable than both my previous linux phones in their initial condition.
He works for them.
You can hear call audio if you use CI images since a few days ago already. Last rough edges are being sorted out right now before finally packaging it all into PureOS.
I have said that because of:
>It seems less like a bug and more like a major design flaw/hurdle.
to show that it's not true.
It looks like it's just `dd`, and there are hundreds of tutorials online diving into how `dd` works if you're curious about learning more.
Not sure if there's a more complicated practice for flashing directly to the phone's internal storage itself, but it can't possibly be more complicated than installing a custom ROM on an Android phone.
https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Development_Environment/Ph...
Hadn't they pushed the release date many times already? I think making progress more palpable was important. Isn't it better to ship something flawed and continue improving while already in the hands of people than to ship nothing at all and appear more and more like vaporware?
If you position it purely as a hobbyist project and do not guarantee it for day to day use, I think that’s fine. This is fine for a dev kit.
I think taking preorders and trying to sell it as a privacy-focused phone that can be a real alternative to the main steel options when you don’t have basic things, like making audio calls, figured out, is problematic.
I get the company needs money from preorders to fund development and production, but at the same time, as a consumer, their lack of funding for development/business plan isn’t my problem.
I’m generally fine when things like this are kickstarted and the risk is clear. I’m less comfortable when after the crowdfunding, the company does direct to consumer sales/pre-orders, when the stuff just isn’t done and that isn’t well articulated to anyone clicking that pre-order button.
It’s also not like there are any guarantees for when it will be usable — and that is also true for other features and other apps.
I’m all for people supporting projects/ideas that represent their values and the ideals behind the Librem 5 are nice — but this is an extremely ambitious project from a company that has very little capital and lots and lots of work. Anyone spending actual money should be doing so with the understanding that nothing is guaranteed.
Plus, it’s always a bad idea to spend money based on the future promises of a device — it’s not always avoidable, but it’s still not a good idea.
There are things to not like about the company, but releasing like this is not one.
Not really:
> Q: If I receive the Librem 5 from one of the first batches, will I have a fully functional phone?
> A: Yes! Even the very earliest batches will be capable smartphone, including a modern web browser and core cell phone functionality.
Purism also wrote in earlier blog posts that the phone in its current state of course can make phone calls. For example they wrote more than one month before anyone outside of Purism got their phone:
> In the Wild: People have been using their Librem 5 while traveling, working and relaxing to connect to WiFi hotspots, browse the internet, use social media, play games and yes… to call and send text messages.
They explicitly tried very hard to not make it sound like the device in its current state is basically completely unusable as a mobile device or phone. If someone actually expected a device which has no standby mode, lasts less than an hour on battery, has a smaller battery capacity than advertised, can't be charged reliably while turned on, can't make phone calls, can't send/receive messages reliably, ... then that's because they listened to the so called haters and trolls, not Purism.
Does this pricing accurately reflect the increased cost of producing everything but the chassis in the US?
https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
https://jaylittle.com/post/view/2019/10/the-sad-saga-of-puri...
I suspect they don't have the cash on hand for manufacturing the pending existing librem 5 orders, which unless I'm mistaken requires some redesign work to fix the thermal issues.
The people getting them already do so because they want the idea to have a chance, not because they're cheap or directly good value for money. Some might say "it's double than what I'd spend on an Android, but that's worth it" about the normal price, wouldn't be surprised if for others the reference frame is "2x iPhone" instead.
First, not all of the parts are necessarily produced in the USA - the PCBA is produced there, and the parts are assembled there, but the parts themselves are likely procured elsewhere. Even still, this greatly complicates the kind of supply chain attack this is meant to prevent, because you have to compromise individual components that you hope will end up in the device you're targeting.
Second, they already had these facilities in place in the US for prototyping purposes. Thus, the up-front cost investment for setting up a facility in the US is much lower than usual, so they can set a lower price than others might be able to offer.
Third, there is probably a capacity constraint at that facility; the price chosen was likely selected to suppress demand below that threshold, not purely based on relative production cost.
Finally, although I have only limited experience (n=2) with cross-shopping electronics manufacturing between the US and China, a 3x overhead is actually substantially lower than I would expect; we were seeing ~6-10x increases for manufacturing and assembly. This could be because their production facility (which, again, already exists) would otherwise be sitting idle.
I can't speak to the health of their business (a sibling comment suggested this was a "money grab"), but the numbers seem pretty reasonable for what you're getting, overall. Note that this is not targeting the same crowd who buys "Made in USA" t-shirts to support the local economy; the audience is more likely to be security wonks who are already concerned about supply chain attacks.
How many units were you building/shipping? And was your QA on-site/in-country?
Pursim should have a standing offer: we will make your phone on a day scheduled well in advance and allow your auditors in the factory to watch over the process. At an extra cost of course, but I think this is something they could offer easily enough and it would be very helpful to those most paranoid about security.
Dealing with government contracts isn't easy though.
There's no need for them to limit demand of the USA model with a higher price, the demand for this phone is very low in general considering it's not even usable as a phone.
Edit:
"Librems are heavily overpriced but that is because Purism seemingly never tried to get better deal and the South San Francisco partner abused this so that is why Purism Librems are double the price they should be." - Zlatan Todoric former Purism CTO [0]
[0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Zlatan-T...
comment: doesn't it reflect poorly on librem to even offer this option? for a hw company whose sole market shtick is to offer hw/sw privacy they're now implying that the majority of their hw can be compromised and if you really want the uncompromising security you should get the 4x more expensive option made in the USA?
either they should completely eliminate the made in china option or they really should try to spin this a different way, because it reflects absolutely horribly on them.
I find Baskerville pretty readable. Is it the same font you're seeing on the page? I wonder if something caused your browser to show a fallback instead.
I think it reflects that all phones made in China have the potential to be compromised by malicious actors. That risk shouldn't be in most people's threat model, and if you're comparing the Librem to a standard Android phone you're still getting a substantial privacy bump just from hardware kill switches alone.
If you have a very specific threat model, Purism is now one of the few companies that offers made-in-US phones, which (in theory) fills an underserved niche. But most people who want a Librem 5 should get the normal phone.
If you have control over the entire assembly process, that eliminates a class of security risks that otherwise need to be addressed with tamper-evident firmware or by checking for bugs and extra components after the phone is assembled. But that drives costs up substantially, so nobody assembles phones in the US -- not even companies like Apple.
Remember that security isn't binary. Different segments even within the privacy community need different levels of security.
either they believe in their chinese supply chain or they don't. and it's not like their usa manufacturing is done in-house by librem so they still don't have 'control over the entire assembly process" because they depend on a 3rd party to make their boards for them.
The likelihood of China compromising the Librem 5 is very low, and there are safeguards in place to prevent that. But no safeguard is absolute. Even manufacturing in the US isn't absolute security -- it's just a bit less dangerous than China.
Whether that reduced risk is important enough to be worth $1300... I tend to think it's not, but I assume there are a few people who will care enough to pay that.
The same situation applies to companies like Apple, Samsung, etc... the only difference is that those companies have judged that the potential market benefits of catering to people who have extremely strict privacy requirements is too low to justify starting up US operations.
The hardware switches are also a good example of what I'm talking about here. There is a small risk of malicious firmware or a bug in software allowing a camera to be turned on without your knowledge. Does this mean the iPhone is insecure? There's not a yes or no answer. It means there is a specific subset of users who would be served by a stricter (but still imperfect) extra security control -- a physical kill switch.
An even safer policy would be to remove the camera entirely -- then you could be certain that the physical hardware isn't defective and allowing the camera to be flipped back on. But even that wouldn't be binary security. There is no such thing as binary security.
I'd rather gamble with the evil oppressive government that doesn't have jurisdiction here, than the evil oppressive government that does.
Which makes their concerns about Huawei all the more understandable. They know the risks because they've performed the attacks themselves.