Comment by Jach | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Jach | Hacker News Reader

Speculation, but I think the tendency toward sociopathic really helps avoid any hang-ups over money. Sure, I'd rather sociopaths get on the Forbes list rather than go out and kill people, but their personality is what I find distasteful, and in any case it's an unnatural brain wiring, that's why I think it's not so easy to just "become a [partial?] sociopath" if you want to rake in money.

I tried the Cutco-selling gig for a couple months, and realized almost immediately that I wasn't cut out for it. Sure I could follow the manual (which was golden as far as things-you-need-to-do-to-convert), smile, talk smoothly, answer questions, etc., but inside I think I just fundamentally couldn't shake the feeling that "If these people wanted what I was selling, they'd have gotten it already." (And I think that came out a bit whether I wanted it to or not.) On a high level I know that can be false, but intuitively, that's how I think; I hate ads and when I buy something non-trivial it's usually after personal research, not because of a salesman. Salesmen even make me less likely to buy something especially because I can see through all their rhetoric. I find something really wrong with exploiting the cognitive biases of people even if it's been done for all time, and even if I do it sometimes subconsciously. We should be trying to eliminate those biases, not feeding them.

All this said though, you don't have to be a sociopath or a real hustler to see the opportunity of printing out new menus for a quick buck. That's more in line with hacking than with money grabbing, I think. More similar to a college student coming up with pizza money for a weekend than with going after money as a goal in itself.

That's why it helps to believe in your product. PG once described his approach to selling as "Make your product the best on the market, and then tell the truth."

That's just another trick to make you a more convincing salesman, like smiling. Of course they drill that into your head during the unpaid training for Cutco, and hey, those knives are pretty badass, I still have and use my demo set. It doesn't change the fact that I feel like "Well, if my product really is the best on the market, what do you need me to tell you for? The truth is out there, it doesn't have to come from me." I'm perfectly comfortable with giving a list of facts about my theoretical product and why it's awesome, or making people aware of its existence, what I'm not comfortable with is making a story to get you to want it or pressure you into believing everything I say, and I definitely don't like rhetorical devices used for selling.

Yet even PG's advice is product-focused rather than selling-focused; can you distinguish PG's advice from a simple bulleted fact-list? (And how well do you think that alone will sell your product?) If your product isn't the best on the market (or so you think), taking PG's advice would tell you to get back to work while a hustler would go out and sell it anyway. (They don't even necessarily have to lie about anything.) PG's approach echoes the traditional programmer reply of why he doesn't need a marketing team or need to study marketing by saying "My product will speak for itself."

Anyway, can you link to an essay or post from PG where he said that? A quick Google search didn't turn up a source.

It was a comment here, not an essay. I can't find anything with a search, but this is a really hard one to Google for since I'm paraphrasing and don't remember his exact words.

It seems this isn't enough to make as much sales as you could. Even if your product is the best in the market, the other guy selling his inferior product may use the black arts of sales and manipulate people into buying his product. I think its very hard to take the high road if you want to make sales. If everyone else is playing the game and you're not, you automatically are a loser.

I did the Cutco thing too. I did kind of feel like I was selling people things they don't really need or want, so I got out of it. So I kind of agree with your there.

I moved on over the years to sales involving multi-million dollar transactions, always involving very high pressure negotiations, and that allows a more detailed look at the true value of the salesman (broker).

A salesman isn't someone who tries to sell ice to Eskimos. He needs to be a leader. He needs to understand his field, understand his customer at a deeper level than what the customer is verbalizing, and help lead customers to actually attain their interests.

Think of it this way. A salesmen has a seller, who is offering something of value at a price. He tries to get a buyer to pay that price, by explaining why what the seller is selling is worth the money. He's a broker, bringing people together who legitimately have value to offer each other.

If he gets good at that he can sell his services for a good price, and do well for himself.

You can do your own research on the right smart phone for you, and even the right car; sometimes it is very helpful to have someone who specializes in a product or service help you understand why it's in your interest to purchase it. It is certainly in the product or service creator's interest to pay for such an excellent specialist.

That being said, a lot of salesmen are scum, or useless, or both, and fortunately those guys never really amount to much.

Totally agree.

> lead customers to actually attain their interests.

This is something I just don't like doing at all, also you're not leading them to their optimal interests and so there's some inherent trickery involved. Yes, sometimes salesmen can amplify personal insight, but mostly it's just a matching up of interests toward a zero-sum game.

That's interesting, because I also sold Cutco, and stayed for 2 years (wanted to hit 25k) before leaving. I thought they were great knives, and felt good leaving each sale. In fact, I felt bad for people that said no or couldn't afford them. I suppose believing in the product is the big difference.

They are great knives. I still use the Super Shears and the knives from my starter set to this day, 13 years later. I was very young then, and didn't have a car, but I pulled in orders for 3 homemaker sets in one of my first weeks.

Cutco makes a good product. But there's no doubt their marketing strategy is a bit deceptive. Telling college students to go through their list of personal contacts and make appointments explaining that you just need to do a presentation for school credit, or that you just get paid to do presentations. I was meeting people who really didn't give a damn about having decent cutlery. I convinced a few that they should spring for the Cutco, and there's nothing wrong with that. I did actually believe the product was great, but if I was honest with myself, I had to admit that unless they really loved cooking, often their money probably better spent on other things.

Cutco was important early experience for me in sales, and I really can't knock the company, its product, or its sales reps. But I was glad to stop making appointments to sell knives.

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