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Comment by DyslexicAtheist | Hacker News Reader

see also this cluster-fudge: "firefox: Safe Browsing updates fail due to insufficient quota on the Google API key" https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=895147

both issues are still open after more than 1 year! There seems to be a disconnect in how FF security is perceived by tech savvy users and how security/privacy critical bugs get prioritized by Mozilla.

edit:

Just recently I discovered DoH was activated by default now and bypassing my /etc/hosts block list without any warning. This opened me up to tracking from sites I thought I had blocked (discovered it only by accident and after several months when I actively looked into DoH and the network.trr.mode setting).

In all above cases the failure-modes are insecure. It's like a firewall that suddenly switches its enforcement policy from a deny-all+whitelisting to allow-all+blacklisting without properly informing users.

Totally unacceptable!

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The linked bug appears to be waiting on action from the Debian maintainers. The Mozilla devs in that thread seem very responsive.

Yes, the linked bug (from the comment) appears to be entirely between Debian and Google (Chromium is affected too) with Mozilla offering to facilitate, with no (public at least) response from debian?

DoH is only activated by default in the US and if you use PiHole or similar there is a DNS canary that prevents FF from using DoH. Additionally it shouldn't be ignoring your /etc/hosts block list as DoH simply replaces DNS not the host list.

Thank you for that note on DNS-over-HTTP .. it might explain a weird event for me recently where a blacklisted site wasn't blocked (opendns + pihole).

Are FF sending all my DNS data to a private third party now then? Doesn't sound a very FOSS thing to do?

Yes, they are sending all of your DNS requests to Cloudflare.

You can of course change it, but it's opt-out and not communicated to users that this is happening.

In the name of privacy.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/dns-over-https-doh-faqs

You may trust Cloudflare, but I do not. I trust my DNS provider. It's fine for me, I keep up on these things and I have disabled DoH already (I don't care for any current DoH provider, and I also rely on /etc/hosts entries.) In any case, my post was only meant to inform. To each their own, use them if you like or if you trust their privacy promises more than I do. But people should be aware that Mozilla silently changed where all your DNS requests are routed to.

> You may trust Cloudflare, but I do not. I trust my DNS provider.

For many, maybe even most, the situation is reversed. ISP-provided DNS (the default for 99% of web users) is very often intentionally mis-configured to return ad-laden "search results" instead of NXDOMAIN. The situation is more authoritarian administrative districts is even worse. You're right that trusting Cloudflare isn't ideal either, but they are at least better behaved than most ISPs, so it's the lesser of two evils, I think. Non-technical users shouldn't be expected to know how these things function, they should just get the least-bad option by default.

> For many, maybe even most, the situation is reversed.

Big claim, with no evidence what so ever. Consider this a "Citation needed".

Most people use their ISP provided DNS should be the null hypothesis / status quo. I wouldnt expect someone to prove that claim. I would expect someone to prove the claim "most people change their DNS from the ISP default to google."

I thought they were questioning whether ISPs in general routinely hijack DNS. I've not heard of this happening in the UK, but haven't scoped around looking for it.

It was normal in the US for an ISP to return a "helpful" page when you entered a nonexistant domain. It sort of looked like a search results page. In reality it usually turned into a page of ads. Each ISP may have been different with the volume of actual search results they returned on the page.

I've seen things like that in the UK, too; it's certainly not a US-only practice.

German Telekom does this, just get a german DSL link and you'll find out the joy of getting redirected to shitty search engines plastered with ads.

Has it been suggested by anyone yet that Google is pushing for DoH because those DNS-typo advertisers are a competitor to its ad/search hegemony and eliminating them as a business model helps Google's bottom line.

You can say anything Google does is because it ends up pushing its own ad model, but I don't think many users would actively want ad results to show up when you would regularly get a NXDOMAIN.

I am certain it's been suggested. But I can't see Google's motives I can only see its actions. If you do good things whatever the reasons the good things stay done while the reasons die with you.

A few minutes walk from me some people opened a gelato place. You go there, you buy some gelato. Nice. Warm summer evening, drop in, buy a cone, delicious. I am 100% certain that by selling me frozen desert they get money! Their plan may not specifically have focused on me enjoying this at all. And yet, since the effect is that I can enjoy desert that's exactly what I do, and I don't begrudge them their money.

I doubt it, from what I know, the money the ISPs make from typo-searching is barely noticable, mostly a leftover from when ads where valuable.

This phenomenon is so popular it has its own section on the "DNS Hijacking" wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_hijacking#Manipulation_by_...

Unless they explicitly say so, your ISP is not spending a boat-load of money running a DNS server for you to use because they're nice. They're not even doing it because you're paying them for a service. They're doing it because they can monetize the data and serve you ads.

They're doing it because it's been a standard ISP practice for years because most people don't run their own recursive resolver and have no skills to do so. End result is that to provide an internet connection, you have to also provide a DNS resolver, full stop. Monetizing and ads came later when business stopped caring about the RFCs.

> End result is that to provide an internet connection, you have to also provide a DNS resolver, full stop

Nope. You have to provide the address of a resolver, but that doesn't mean you have to run one yourself. There's nothing stopping the ISPs shipping a standard DHCP config that points their customers at (for example) 8.8.8.8, or 1.1.1.1, or whoever.

Both of the major ISPs in my area do this. AT&T and Cox Communications I'm fairly certain Comcast and Verizon does this as well.

Completely agree with both sides here.

It's a tradeoff and people should weigh the pros/cons seriously. Firefox claims it shows a notification popup, but it may be too easy to click away. (I didn't see it.)

It should be front-and-center.

It should not. Firefox is not designed for the tech-savvy, it is a general public product. The average user has no idea what DNS is, couldn't care less. In the best case he is only bothered by the question, in the worst will call me for instructions on cleaning up a "virus".

I think this a mostly US issue.

You seem like you may know what you're doing. Would you mind sharing who your DNS provider is? Do you pay for recursive service?

I don't trust my ISP, so I'd prefer not to use their DNS or to pass requests up to root servers over cleartext. I also had some performance issues with root server requests since they have to chase the authoritive servers.

Right now I'm sending TLS requests to cloudflare, but obviously since I'm not paying for them, I'm the product.

> I don't trust my ISP

Then switch to one you do trust.

I'm not sure where you call home, but at least in the US, that is impossible for many people. Or rather, impossible without physically moving your house.[0]

Especially if you do not count satellite, which I do not. My house has one crappy DSL 18Mbps provider and that's it. Their way or the highway.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/08/us-br...

I live in Norway, Europe and around here ISPs compete for my business.

Kinda like a “free market”, except it’s “regulated“ to not allow scamming end-customers. I find it quite enjoyable.

Maybe you in the US should fix the root cause of your problem (legislation) instead of deploying rogue technology making life complex for everyone else?

It would be interesting to see stats on this.

I would guess between monopolies and hostile governments, more people worldwide have no choice, and it's a good default, but I don't know.

In any case, both Firefox and Chrome should make it super clear to users that they are doing this.

Here in the UK, I have a choice of many different ISPs, all of whom (in theory) compete for my business.

Guess what? The big ones are still awful: hijacking DNS, providing horribly congested service and laughable "support". All in the race to cut as much cost and increase profit in the name of being able to undercut the next guy by £1/pm. Competition isn't the pancea you seem to think it is.

> Maybe you in the US should fix the root cause of your problem (legislation) instead of deploying rogue technology making life complex for everyone else?

Maybe you should use a different browser. Or learn how the one you're using works at least.

That kind of feels like answer the question "why is there cellophane on the counter" with "Why don't you go to apple and get them to change their packaging to reduce plastic waste?" I mean, yeah, that's a solution, but you're requiring a massive effort, when really that doesn't address your problem at the moment.

You can just point to other DNS servers instead of your ISP's. Some providers might intercept and redirect those queries, but I haven't ever run across any.

You could, but DoH exists to provide a crypto-based guarantee that they can't even passively monitor the DNS requests you're sending to the alt. resolver.

DoH only hides the domain name lookup. You still connect to the other server by IP. Even $2.50/mo VPS plans offer a unique IP these days, and building a database of IP:hostname is extremely trivial, especially for ISPs that already run DNS resolvers.

But let's be real: the internet is quickly becoming a walled garden, so having access to DNS requests is mostly only going to give you a billion facebook.com + twitter.com + youtube.com + google.com + google-analytics.com lookups anyway.

> Especially if you do not count satellite, which I do not.

Hopefully starlink will change this :)

One can hope. Still, that's at least four years out still, and I have my doubts he'll launch on time.

Quoting $80/mo, thus far.

You're not just getting connectivity, though. You are getting Mars. Or, buying it for somebody else, really.

OpenDNS offers paid dns service (if paying for dns give you peace of mind). Alternatively, you can rent a vps and run your own recursive dns server there, but make sure your vps provider allows running recursive dns to avoid account suspension.

> I trust my DNS provider.

Do you also trust everyone in the same Internet Cafe as you? And your ISP? And everyone else on the network path to your DNS provider? Because they all can see all of your DNS requests. Your ISP can even alter them. DoH ensures privacy and integrity of your DNS requests, so they are _only_ shared with your DoH provider.

What I don't trust is Cloudflare. When a DoH provider I trust pops up, I will move to that.

Mass surveillance is privacy. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

If you have an up-to-date PiHole, firefox should automatically disable DoH since PiHole now ships the necessary canary.

Still unacceptable if I'm not at home or on a VPN.

If you're not at home or on a VPN you trust, how can you trust the network you are in delivers a safe DNS server? Besides, you can always disable DoH or point it to your own DoH server.

> Just recently I discovered DoH was activated by default now and bypassing my /etc/hosts block list without any warning

It reads your /etc/hosts before going to DoH I believe.

Thanks for this. What should I do to disable this? Set network.trr.mode in about:config to 0?

Doesn't have to be so arcane. Network Settings -> Untick "Enable DNS over HTTPS"

Thanks

set network.trr.mode to 5: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Trusted_Recursive_Resolver

also if you have unbound or local dnsmasq caching you could set a canary domain (https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/canary-domain-use-appli... ). To set it up with dnsmasq just add the line for the canary to /etc/dnsmasq.conf:

  address=/use-application-dns.net/

For those running a PiHole, I thought for sure that the pihole was already doing this for me. Turns out the implementations (#2915 & #2916) are still sitting in the development branch waiting for a release - they were merged to development on Sep 07, 2019.

* https://github.com/pi-hole/pi-hole/pull/2915

* https://github.com/pi-hole/pi-hole/pull/2916

* https://github.com/pi-hole/pi-hole/compare/master...developm...

My DoH in 71.0 and 72.0 is off by default, I haven't changed those settings.

Seems to be automatically enabled for users in the US [1] if I understand correctly.

[1] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https

I guess you want your money back?

no I want people who call themselves "devs" to actually care about security or stay away from production code. These are violations of very basic security principles.

What do you mean by "stay away from production code"?

Not the person you're replying, but I read it as "If you don't know what you're doing, do not touch".

What basic security principles would that be?

Mozilla likes to talk a good game about caring about privacy and user control, but it's mostly just marketing. These are the same people who integrated Pocket and did that stupid Mr. Robot thing.

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