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Comment by kmarc | Hacker News Reader

Yes. This is how it works, this is what he clicked the button "I agree" for.

He could have chosen the old way and buying the cartridges himself on a regular basis, but he chose the subscription model and now he wines about it.

What you need to understand about the subscription model is that you DON'T own the cartridge and you DON'T pay for the cartridge. You pay for printed pages. If the ink runs out, the printer automatically orders a set of new ones, for no additional cost. You receive a package to your preferred postal address, that contains the new ink and a sealable, labeled, post-stamped bag in which you will put the old ones and send it back to HP.

I absolutely love this model. I pay the minimal 2USD for it (if I exceed the monthly printable 50 pages, I get another 10p/$1, or upgrade my subscription. Unused quota accumulates up to 100p), and I get a monthly email about the detailed pricing.

Also, this way the used cartridges (dangerous waste) are handled properly and an environmentally friendly way.

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You see, around ~10 years ago I could just buy online a (even non-genuine) refill kit and just refill the ink in the cartridges by myself. And I could use the printer whenever I wanted. If I run out of the ink, I would just buy the ink refill set which costed around 5-6€. Think that such kit could be re-used to fill multiple carriages and last many months. If I did not use the printer for 2 months, I would not need to pay any fee for just having a printer in idle state. I "owned" the printer.

Nowadays, you seem not to even "own" the printer nor the cartridges. Everything becomes a service where you should be in the loop continuously paying for it. And we are consciously supporting such economy.

Same as with running water. Thankfully I don't have to dig my own well anymore, even worse: in some countries I'm not even allowed to, and I have to pay for the service!

This model is there for a very long time, and makes our lives much easier. And if it doesn't lock you in, is offered for quite cheap (we are talking about $3-5 per month, or even the free tier) I don't see the problem with it. As long as you have the freedom of choice (to switch vendors, or do it yourself), I don't see the problem.

Water supply is a natural monopoly which is pretty different straight away. The externalities are really nasty (say you extract water under your property, the water doesn't care about property lines so water will flow from other land and potentially cause subsidence, a big cost to somebody else) and water is actually part of a global cycle so while one person can get away with just taking their water from a well and dumping effluent into the lake if a million people do that a bunch of them are going to die.

And as a result of all this it's heavily regulated unlike printer ink.

Epson advertises a tank based injet on the TV. The ads star Shaq!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1GWHfg2P5Y

HP has a subscription printer, there's no printer apocalypse.

I worked at Staples in university when the EcoTank printers first started coming to market. There was an Epson rep that came in and offered to print anything for anyone using the top-of-the-line model, as a demonstration of the quality and longevity of the ink and tanks, as well as promoting the cost benefits over even a cheap laser printer.

Needless to say, most of us employees (who were students at the same university) had everything printed. Textbooks, assignments, posters. Thousands upon thousands of pages got printed on those Saturdays, some days you'd swear it just went continuously from the minute we opened to well after we closed. With my family having owned nothing but lasers, I was incredibly impressed by it. Being able to refill the tanks while the printer was going was just incredible, leading to zero downtime or the suffering quality you start to see when cartridges run low.

For the low volume of printing I personally do, I'll stick to laser, but for those who do a lot of colour printing and want the high-quality inkjet offers, I'd go as far to say there's no competiton.

Haha - I've seen that one!

The best printer-related job for Shaq would seem to be crushing them in his giant hands. Can you picture him wearing bi-focals, trying to type on a standard keyboard with those frying pans?

Sort of. Epson has tanks but charges for a “maintenance box” replacement that fills up with waste ink.

Can you empty that box yourself and reuse it? Just asking because I was pleasantly surprised when I found out I could do this for a similar box in our office copy machine (this one catching waste toner particles) when the machine from one moment to the next stopped working without prior warning and wanted a fresh box.

I'm sure many do this. I honestly don't own a printer and make use of a nearby library instead.

some printers now use an "ink pad": "Caution: Power Cleaning may cause the ink pads to reach their capacity sooner. When an ink pad reaches the end of its service life, the product stops printing and you must contact Epson for support."

https://files.support.epson.com/docid/cpd5/cpd56719.pdf

Yes. I do this too with ink from Precision Colors for photo printing. The cost per page is a fraction of ordering new, original carts. They even include a chip to reset the "low ink" flag built in to the cart that is suppose to prevent you from refilling.

[0] http://precisioncolors.com/

It was his choice. He could either buy a regular cartridge or a subscription cartridge for the same printer.

Yup. I bought my mother a new printer a year or two back. She wanted Instant Ink, I explained how it would work but I was pretty cynical, nevertheless she was immediately attracted. "Are you sure?" I asked, "It makes no real difference to me which mid-range inkjet printer I buy you and some of these are reviewed as being cheap to run with large ink tanks you can re-fill yourself". She was insistent that HP's Instant Ink business model fitted her needs. I installed the printer & set up Instant Ink before I left.

A year later she reports everything working out just how she wanted and no regrets. She's on one of the middle tiers so it's not an inconsiderable amount of money but she prints quite a lot of stuff, she does craft projects with local kids in various organisations and does dress making, these days mostly for dolls because we (her kids) grew up - and it all ends up using paper patterns. She enjoys the small puzzle of managing the page budget to avoid excess fees, and she very much likes never finding that it's low on ink unexpectedly without a spare cartridge ready to go because of course HP ensures that frustration won't happen.

This is still possible today. Costco has an ink refill service [1], which I assume should support all printers they sell.

[1]: https://costcoinkjetrefill.com/

Its not a perfect match as the inkjet refills are provided by another company (called RIS) but it does cover a lot of printers and has the ability to re-chip many cartridges that are protected from reuse that way

"I absolutely love this model."

You are right, the model is great for some people in some cases. However, its a model where companies use software to lock you out of being able to use your hardware. This is becoming extremely widespread. Consider also the farmers having to deal with the John Deere tractor licenses and being unable to maintain their own equipment (or Apple preventing you from being able to upgrade or repair your macs/iphones).

The problem is that as the practice scales, people end up with no real property rights, and are just ensnared in a hundred terms of service agreements that they literally cannot escape while living a normal life.

Lots of potentially dangerous things are harmless or even pleasant on a small scale.

While I agree I think that domestic printing is and should be increasingly obsolete so I opted for free tier printing specifically because I wanted a fallback (like keeping an old USB CD-ROM drive in case - like my canon camera firmware was not online and only on the CD they sent me).

If you are occasionally forced to send in a paper form or your flight carrier insists on a printed boarding pass etc. it doesn't make economic sense to keep a printer functional at normal cost.

I see HP free tier as a legacy support system.

Ideally I'd print nothing. It's maddening how much bureaucracy still requires printing.

But I agree that on devices that you depend on it is weird.

I live in Amsterdam and have a subscription bike (and I pay for the fact that I will always have a replacement bike if any issues come up)... but I guess I wouldn't like a situation where I couldn't buy (and repair) a regular bike.

For some engineering stuff it’s useful too, checking the size or fit of something.

Really? I live in the Netherlands as well and haven't had to print something in ages. If I have to I'll just go to the library which is right next to the supermarket.

I do write the address on envelopes by hand, which I would use a printer for if I'd own one.

I'm a British expat and for example:

- Some of my forms for UK electoral registration.

- For 30% ruling the firm doing my application sent a form to print band return

- I set up a sole trader company and had to print and bring form to my setup meeting.

There were a few others too. The NL itself is generally good for digital services though. I only need to print a few things a year. Nothing frequent.

Things I print: manuscripts to edit (easier to mark up), crosswords to solve, sheets for PnP RPGs, print and play games, patterns for children, etc

I basically markup manuscripts 50% of my day, I live in OneNote (on Surface Pro). For MS I'm quite impressed, there's a few annoyances (and work won't let me try OneTastic) but overall it works -- I've not printed anything for my own use since I started using it.

I just print stuff at work.

Some of us still have problems reading off of LCDs all day and tablets still don't cut it. Maybe e-ink will eventually be ok.

Yeah that's true. I bought a USB e-ink monitor na few years back, but the refresh rate was intolerable.

I have high hopes for a technology like that though. Natural contrast ratio as brightness increases is a wonderful thing.

Phones have got ridiculously bright backlights to solve this, and still sunglasses and a sunny day completely ruin the experience.

The main thing I use my printer for is printing postage when I send packages. Is that not a thing in the Netherlands?

At least in Germany I usually get a QR code for the online bought postage I just show at the local post office on my phone. They print out the the postage thing on a sticker. I need to go there anyways with the package.

Ah, that's a little more involved than what I'm used to in the United States.

Here I can print a piece of paper with an address and 2D bar code on it (which is the postage), tape the label to a box, and leave it where the mailman can find it (usually on my front porch), drop it in the outgoing mail at work, or hand it to any mailman I see. No visiting a post office to mail things.

Why not just go to your local library and print for $0.10/page or whatever? Our library is super small and still supports WiFi printing (I assume with a credit card to release print jobs). For photos, I go to Costco or the local pharmacy, which seems to always have decent photo printers.

If you can plan ahead a little, you don't ever need to actually have a printer on hand.

However, if you print frequently, a B&W laser printer is probably a worthwhile investment. I bought one when my wife needed to do immigration paper work and it has been great. We still use it quite frequently to print out coloring sheets or whatever for my kids, as well as for sending in the occasional form. I haven't needed to buy a new toner cartridge, and I have printed around 1000 pages and it still prints as clearly as the day I bought it. I think we've spent about the same as printing at our library, but from the convenience of our home, and I've used the scanner function several times, as well as the bulk copy feature (insert stack of paper and it copies them all).

If you only print occasionally (1-2x/year), check out your local library or office supply store. If you print more frequently, a laser printer is most likely what you want, especially if you only need black and white. If you print a lot of color, maybe getting a color inkjet is worthwhile if you like the look of ink over toner. Most people shouldn't own an inkjet printer.

You are right. Same as with vendor lock-in when a business chooses platforms (hello, Oracle).

However, in this case, I like the idea that if tomorrow I wanted to print with Epson, I can sell / abandon this given HP printer and my future printing needs won't depend on my relationship with HP now. (OTOH, I am using HP printer/scanners for 10y now and this is the only brand I am satisfied with, especially for their Linux support).

> the model is great for some people in some cases. I know that my needs might be not the same as others'. For me the model immediately clicked because of my preferences (environmental friendliness, automated ink orders - this one is super convenient since I travel a lot and in the past the ink ran out EXACTLY when I needed on that only weekend when I was finally at home, etc.)

Anyhow, to me this only tells that this dude should probably rethink his finances if he has no idea what subscriptions he has. After that, maybe he should be aware what terms and conditions he accepted, instead of making a fool of himself on twitter.

Also, sometimes the lengthy T&C is a trick to make you buy a shitty service with a lot of hidden fees. Now if you check out their webpage[1], it's crystal clear what it is about, and what are their prices.

[1]: https://instantink.hpconnected.com/us/en/l/

Now that I look at it. This is actually an excellent idea. I would go for the free plan in a heartbeat and pay $1 more for just the rare times I want to print some vacation photos.

This is a very devious business model, yet it is something that HBR reading PHBs seem to be completely obsessed now:

People in the industry it "Product as a Service": you buy a widget, but you don't own it, and have to keep paying the seller for the right to use it.

Just google: instantInk and scam

That's why when you buy an HP printer, you can choose whether you use Instant Ink or buy your cartridges, the old fashioned way.

This is just not "your" hardware anymore, like the Kindle e-books you bought at Amazon are not your books or music you paid for to iTunes is not your music.

This is not a sarcasm, I'm just trying to adapt myself to this brand new world and not to cringe when hearing words like this from myself or anyone else.

Not to take away from your point, but music purchased from iTunes is your music. Purchased iTunes music is completely DRM free and can be played anyway you want by just copying the files. I'm pretty sure Amazon digital music purchases are DRM free as well.

However, its a model where companies use software to lock you out of being able to use your hardware.

It does no such thing. He could send the subscription ink cartridge back and buy a regular cartridge for his printer.

Would you say that a pinball machine uses it's software to lock it's hardwsre if you don't play ?

> However, its a model where companies use software to lock you out of being able to use your hardware.

To be clear: Anyone using HP Instant Ink (II) can cancel II and buy a non-II cartridge and be on their merry way. As noted in other parts of this post: The only thing OP was blocked from doing was using an II cartridge after he stopped paying for the II service.

Disclaimer: I do agree the tractor licensing situation is not good, but it's also not the same as this situation.

"You receive a package to your preferred postal address, that contains the new ink and a sealable, labeled, post-stamped bag in which you will put the old ones and send it back to HP."

People seem to be missing this part. It's like returning a rental car.

You are technically obliged to return the cartridges contractually I believe. The fact that they don't pursue you if you don't is at least a small positive.

I can see why some think it's a dark pattern, but it's usual in a rental type scenario to return the thing that was on loan to you

On top of that companies make refillable inkjets now. I own Epson like this - runs out of ink, add more ink from the bottle. I’m completely satisfied because there is no cartridge nonsense. In theory I can use cheaper non-Epson ink, but I don’t bother since cost is reasonable.

I bet that epson still has a programmed death event and will start barking about the print head after x number of pages. We needed an open source printer yesterday, but of course the priorities aren't there because it is just a printer after all.

Nay, they just sell it at full unsubsidized price, it’s not cheap.

What's the model?

Not OP so not 100% certain, but it's likely to be an Epson Ecotank printer.

Epson EcoTank ET-3760

Am I completely out of the loop? Ink-jet printers were always an insane rip-of, and I got a laser printer once those became cheap enough a bit more than a decade ago. Can't do color, but it prints pretty fast and you don't get issues if the paper gets wet.

Yes people who want to print color by color printers. Color printing has been a thing for two decades.

I went with a Samsung postscript compatible, duplex black and white laser 5+ years ago. It was a bit over $100. The only problem I’ve had is that there’s a wifi setup button that the cat presses, which disconnects it from wifi.

These days, a duplex, 600 dpi color laser is < $200 (though the first hit is a Canon that is not postscript, smb, or lpr compatible, so watch your wallet...)

My last N inkjets died due to dried up heads (a Brother all in one scanner printer dried out and ruined the permanent heads in a month or two, on the starter cartridge!) or removal of windows driver support (It was an HP; Linux still worked fine...).

Sadly, Samsung sold their printer business to HP. The model I have costs more used than I paid for it new. :-(

I use a government surplus HP Laserjet 1160. I spotted it on top of a dumpster when I was a poor college kid, took it home, and used it for months before I had to buy toner for it.

Generic toner cartridges are $15, and last months to years for me. The printer still has a “Department of Defense” inventory sticker on it.

They figured out there is a market segment for cartridge-less refillable inkjets and now sell them as well. They cost more than regular inkjets, on par with cheap laser printers.

Amazing when a competitive market leads companies to offer a diverse set of products under various theories of finding product-market fit by prioritizing either end-user convenience vs. price & economy!

Also amazing that people will get angry that a company would dare offer a product that doesn’t exactly conform to their own ideological bent.

> Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture stating that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the views being parodied.

Your comment extolling the virtues of subscription locked rental ink has me here.

I think HP are selling printers now where the in-box cartridges are part of Instant Ink, so it's possible that "chose" here could mean "was foolish enough to purchase a printer from HP, king of the ink rip-off".

The blades are always over priced when the razor is under-priced. We can't have it both ways.

The cartridges are not particularly dangerous, nor does HP recycle them (common misconceptions). The reason they send you a prepaid envelope is so that you mail the cartridge back to them instead selling it to a remanufacturer.

Edit: stop downvoting me, I am a printing industry expert

Appeals to authority are unlikely to move this crowd.

Not so much an appeal to authority as this is a fact I am correct about

>is that you DON'T own the cartridge and you DON'T pay for the cartridge. You pay for printed pages.

>pay the minimal 2USD for it (if I exceed the monthly printable 50 pages, I get another 10p/$1, or upgrade my subscription. Unused quota accumulates up to 100p), and I get a monthly email about the detailed pricing.

This model doesn't make sense to me. Why are you paying by the page and not by the amount of ink actually used?

That's like paying for internet by the number of webpages you visit as opposed to the bandwidth you use.

The ink is the product you are using. Unless they're supplying the paper too? It makes sense to charge by the page in a place like Staples or something, but as a subscription for a home printer it seems ridiculous to pay by the page.

> The ink is the product you are using.

You can think of the ink as an implementation detail. With this model you're paying for a capability that happens to be priced on a per-page basis. That's simpler/more understandable for most people than pricing by, say, ink volume.

Yes, this can seem very strange, and it won't make sense for everybody.

It's charge by the page because it's a simple metric that everyone will understand.

Mostly, people aren't printing full coverage (unless it's photos), because it makes the paper soggy.

Postage is probably a bigger cost than ink for HP here; especially for lower volume users who need new cartridges based on time rather than volume.

> Also, this way the used cartridges (dangerous waste) are handled properly and an environmentally friendly way.

You don't need a subscription model for this. At least for laser printers, HP allows you to mail back your used cartridges to them, free of charge to you.

https://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-information/environment/product...

kmarc says>"and now he _wines_ about it."

"Whines! Whines!" NOT "wines"!

Whine - intransitive verb. (1)To produce a sustained, high-pitched, plaintive sound, as in pain, fear, or complaint. (2)To complain or protest in a childish or annoying fashion.

To _wine_ is to drink wine!

I am whining in sense (1), although you are not here to witness my anguish at your language. I might be whining in sense (2) in this post, b/c I am fairly certain that no one but myself cares.

Otherwise, nice note on the good points of the subscription model for print cartridges.

I own one of these and it’s well explained too. They ask for signup information, a credit card, etc. explaining exactly why they need it.

I can understand if you forgot all of this I guess, but it seems hard to forget to me, when it’s such a unique setup flow to a printer and they warn multiple times.

Edit: oh no, it seems that OP actually got shafted by a change to this experience... bummer.

It seems to me from the tweet that he was being charged without it being made clear to him that this is what he was being charged for.

If your subscribers don’t understand that to which they are subscribed, that seems like a problem to me.

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