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Comment by pbreit | Hacker News Reader

"sell the customer an iPhone every three to five years"

Aren't lots of people on monthly plans now with "free" annual upgrades?

I'm on this plan (the zero interest loan plan designed to drive an annual upgrade) and it isn't exactly free.

The loan is absolutely zero interest, but I get ~$200 in fees when I upgrade from AT&T. It's enough where I didn't upgrade from the X to the 11.

I have also since switched to Google Fi and don't know if that same fee exists with them ....

What fees are you getting from AT&T?

I've been a part of the iPhone upgrade plan since it started and haven't been charged any fees by AT&T.

He’s talking about the fees associated with AT&T’s lease plan, not Apple’s.

No. AT&T started charging an upgrade fee, regardless if you went through a 3rd party or not. This started in 2018 iirc.

line access and sim card fee?

$200 sounds a bit insane. Is this across many devices on a multi-device shared plan? AT&T charges me $40-$50 each time I upgrade the device. Anything > $0 still seems silly, but $200!

Those activation fees for devices you own are bullshit, and I can’t believe the government allows it. $30 to do NOTHING.

Why would your carrier charge a fee for phone upgrades? I'm with T-Mobile, and during an upgrade I pop the SIM card out from the old phone and put it in the new phone. Everything works now. The one time I lost the SIM card, I was charged just $10 for a replacement.

I think it’s fees to front the costs of the phone, so you can pay monthly

No. There’s an upgrade fee even when you buy your phone through the iPhone upgrade program now.

That seems outrageous to me. Replacing my device, whether purchased outright or through Apple's upgrade program, shouldn't be of any concern for my provider.

I get ~$200 in fees when I upgrade from AT&T

Ouch. Maybe it's your plan?

When I upgrade iPhones (financed through Apple) on AT&T, the fee is $35.

"Line activation fee" or some such lie. Why do I have to pay a fee to activate a line that's already active?

Because Verizon also has the same fee.

How do you get hit with this fee? I've not done any financing, but I've updated iPhones several times on Tmobile (2013-2016) and Verizon (2018-2019) without even having to tell the carrier...

If you use the Apple upgrade program, all the mobile networks charge an activation fee.

The only way to avoid the activation fee is to swap the SIM by yourself, I think.

We didn't get an activation fee from T-mobile. We also didn't swap the sim.

Maybe I'm wrong about Tmobile, I can't find anything via searching about it, but Verizon and ATT of course charge it. I thought I had heard Sprint and Tmobile do too since the SIM comes with the phone and they have an excuse to charge, but they might be nicer than Verizon and ATT.

If you go into the Apple Store and use the financing option then they will register your phone as a convenience to one of the big 4 carriers. I imagine you could finance and "activate" it later yourself and maybe avoid the fee if you have a physical sim card. But the new phones are eSim so that may play a role. I was told I could not participate in the iphone upgrade program if I wasn't on one of the big 4 carriers. I was on a big 4 but then I went MVNO with no issue. I haven't upgraded since tho.

The $35 I think is an activation fee. I do believe you might also have to pay sales tax which on a $1200 device might be $100.

Just call them when the transaction hits your statement and ask them for a refund. I’ve done this every year they tried to charge me and have been successful. The rep likely also knows it’s a bs fee as well. If not just hang up and speak with another until you get someone who will.

Thank you so much. I'll give this a whirl next time.

That program is available only in a limited number of countries (I’m guessing wherever Apple can make it an interest free loan). It may be the one triggering continuous upgrades in countries like the U.S. and adding to the volumes.

I also wonder, when a phone is financed, who is fronting the cash?

Is the inventory already on the books of the cellular provider?

Is there a third party? Is it securitized?

This business model seems similar to leasing a car.

Apple uses Citizens One as the bank for the upgrade program loans.

If it's via the Apple Upgrade Program, it's essentially leasing.

You take out a loan with Citizens One, and the phone is paid for (from Apple's perspective) outright. You then pay the loan down. However you can't get another upgrade until you've paid at least half of the installments, and then if you trade in the old phone the remaining balance of the loan is deleted.

There's also a new (similar) program integrated into their Apple Card. Not sure how exactly that works.

The inventory comes from Apple. You do not buy/lease/whatever the phone from any carrier. Once you purchase it, you have the option to activate it with whichever of the big carriers in store. You could also walk out and install your own SIM from elsewhere. AUP phones aren't carrier locked.

So, the carriers do not own any of the physical Apple phone inventory?

Not sure about "lots". Probably "lots" are on such plans, but lots more are not.

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