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Comment by rolleiflex | Hacker News Reader

On one hand, this happens, on the other, I use hearing aids and I cannot get Apple to give me a receipt for my AppleCare payment because the only way to get that is to call an internal Apple department, and that department has no email, no TTY, nothing but a phone number. I cannot call phones.

And Apple doesn’t care. What are you going to do, sue them for ADA violations? That’s only for mom-and-pop coffee shops.

ADA has a purpose. However, it should be limited to corporations above a certain revenue (like how GDPR is limited) and the cost of non-compliance drastically increased. At this point, Apple can afford to be non-compliant while this coffee shop has to close, which is the worst of all possible worlds.

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On a related subject, I've learned speaking to some blind programmers that Apple is very good as far as accessibility. It was fascinating watching them use their iphones.

They said google/android was hit or miss, usually miss.

EDIT: I also recall the quote...

"When we started Apple, Steve Jobs and I talked about how we wanted to make blind people as equal and capable as sighted people, and you'd have to say we succeeded when you look at all the people walking down the sidewalk looking down at something in their hands and totally oblivious to everything around them!" ― Steve Wozniak

Indeed, my impression has also been that Apple institutionally cares quite a bit about accessibility.

rolleiflex, have you tried sending an email about this problem to Tim Cook? tcook@apple.com

From what I understand real problems like yours can thereby get escalated to someone able to fix them.

>ADA has a purpose. However, it should be limited to corporations above a certain revenue

The ADA accounts for this by saying that existing properties only need to remove barriers if "readily achievable". One of the factors that go into determining if that is the case is:

> The overall financial resources of the site or sites involved in the action; the number of persons employed at the site; the effect on expenses and resources;

Although, the ADA doesn't give you that out if you've made modifications to the property... which could very well be the case here, since this business didn't even exist until long after the ADA was in full force.

From even before it became the law I have been saying it's horrible. The problem is that it doesn't define what level of accommodation should be required. When it was being passed this let both sides interpret it how they wanted, in practice it turned out pretty much how I expected--repeated court fights over what is reasonable. I didn't realize there would be the scumbag violation hunters, though.

However, I don't think the size of the business should have anything to do with it. Bigger businesses can of course afford more--but there are also more possible points of contention.

As for modifications--removing steps from a building built for them is a big problem. Wheelchair ramps are long, there often simply isn't a reasonable place to put them.

I cannot call phones.

I thought it was possible for deaf people to call 711 and get an operator to relay the call. We get relay calls like that in our call center frequently.

Ideally this should work, but this involves the patience of other person to wait for you to type in, and the text that comes your way to be accurate. In my experience, unless you’re calling a TTY-specific number of a company, neither will be in plentiful supply, and I’ve had people just drop the call once they realise what’s happening.

Don't TTY operators explain what's happening upfront?

In my experience, yes, they do. I worked as tech support for an ISP and had customers call in for support using a TTY relay. The operator explained it up front, then started the conversation.

If I had dropped the call because of that, I'm sure my manager would have been very unhappy.

But think of what it will do to their call times. Many support techs will look at that and drop the call if they can get away with it.

There's a nifty service for deaf people who sign called video relay - you just call any number without having to deal with operator, and you will see a sign language video interpreter pop up and they'll translate the call. It's insanely great and it's all free/sponsored by FCC.

one example of such service: convorelay.com

> And Apple doesn’t care. What are you going to do, sue them for ADA violations?

Yes, maybe small claims is enough to provoke a response.

In my understanding small claims requires demonstrable financial loss - something that is more like an unpaid invoice.

So you were told this when you talked to a lawyer?

Usually, it requires that the relief sought be solely money damages (as opposed to e.g. an injunction), not that the money damages come from a loss per se.

Well you can, there is a federal program you could take advantage of an IP Relay program to make the phone call:

https://www.fcc.gov/general/internet-based-trs-providers

I would suspect that's how they can get away with something like that.

Why wouldnt you sue them for ADA violations?

Do you sign/is VRS an option available for you? I've had good success with the Video Relay Service with Apple.

I'm curious about this, I got a receipt in my email for everything I bought from Apple, either at a store or online.

Is this specific to Apple Care?

I have checked and I definitely have a line for AppleCare on the email receipt for a Mac Mini.

Note, just because it's worth pointing out: The GDPR is not limited by size -- it applies to individual blog owners, small non-profits, etc. You're thinking of California's CCPA.

Also, while the lack of minimum size has vicious aspects, that has pushed small areas without large chains to also be compliant. Someone in a small town being unable to go to any businesses because due to being in a wheelchair is likely much worse off than someone in the same situation in a large city where the large chains have ADA compliance designed in from the start.

You can't use a TDD relay operator?

How did you manage to purchase AppleCare without receiving a single email?

Please read carefully. Poster has no problem with email

"ADA has a purpose. However, it should be limited to corporations above a certain revenue (like how GDPR is limited) and the cost of non-compliance drastically increased. At this point, Apple can afford to be non-compliant while this coffee shop has to close, which is the worst of all possible worlds."

Does that mean that you also believe that only corporations above a certain revenue should comply with laws against racial and sexual discrimination?

If not, what makes discrimination against the disabled worthy of such a limit while sexual and racial discrimination aren't?

Under what circumstance would it cost a small company $100,000 to comply with laws against racial and sexual discrimination?

Under what circumstance would it cost a small company $100,000 to comply with laws against racial and sexual discrimination?

Maybe their business caters to rich white men who would stop patronizing the business if it allowed customers of other genders and skin tones? Obviously that doesn't make it "right", but if you're going to let the cost of complying with the law determine whether or not a business needs to follow it, then pretty much any bad behavior could be justified as costing too much to rectify.

Are you saying that the acceptability of racial and sexual discrimination depends on their financial impact?

How is this possible? I've gotten paper receipts when purchased in store and email receipts when purchased online. How did this fall through the cracks at POS?

I purchased through the Settings app in the phone, which I understand is a new flow that genuinely does not produce any receipts for the time being.

Are you talking about iCloud and such services? I get e-mailed receipts for them every month.

No, newer iPhones will give you a 60 day grace period to choose to add AppleCare through the settings app, the flow is described at https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202702 I have no idea if it generates a receipt/email, as I declined.

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