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Comment by knieveltech | Hacker News Reader

I'd say the overwhelming majority of programmers everywhere are underpaid. I'm basing this on the fact that I could roughly double my current salary if I quit tomorrow and spent a year working my way up as a welder and my salary is pretty much in the median range for the area I live in.

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Your argument is insufficient, and I suspect it's because you're implicitly assuming that programming is also more difficult than welding. I could say that McDonald's employees are underpaid, since they could double their salary by quitting tomorrow and working their way up as a welder. That would probably be true, but that alone doesn't mean that McDonald's employees are underpaid.

edit: prepended "sufficient" with "in," which makes a big difference

I am not assuming anything. I've welded professionally. I've programmed professionally. I know welding is a hell of a lot easier than programming.

I meant "assumption" in the sense of logic or rhetoric, because your argument hinged on that claim despite you making it explicitly.

What's with the downvotes? He's providing additional context to his original statement (which was well considered and well written), this definitely adds to the conversation.

Then why are welders paid more?

At my company welders are paid less than programmers, but you can probably blame that on the welder's being in a union more than anything else.

Well, for one, it's more dangerous than programming. I've heard that welders with SCUBA-diving training make a ton of money (easily $100k/year) simply because the job is quite risky.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics actually has a really nice website with more info: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos226.htm

Union FUD? Really? Spend some time working in the trades (union and non-union gigs) and then come back and make declarative statements regarding unions.

Well I work with the trades on a daily basis. I stand by what I said. The new guys get screwed, the pay scale is entirely weighted towards the guys who have the most years in the union. For the first few years you get paid like crap. And when there are layoffs they trim from the bottom up based on years of service. So it doesn't matter if the guy who is 25 is busting his ass, the guy who is 50 and slacking all day gets paid three times as much and can't be fired.

I know for a fact that the younger guys resent the older guys (and the union that protects the older guys) far more than they resent the non-union or even at times the company itself.

Now I don't know much about non-union welders other than two friends I know. One started his own business making railings and fences and things like that and makes a good amount of money working for himself. He's non-union but also a small business owner so maybe that is a bad data point.

If we eliminated the union at my company, the welders would get paid on merit. It would be a very good thing for most of the younger guys who work their butt off. It would be a bad thing for most of the guys who have been here for 30 years.

So you're saying you'd rather have a quick bump in pay than annuity, pension, access to the local's placement services and guaranteed working conditions/benefits? That's your call ultimately but you'll excuse me if I think it seems a bit short-sighted. Out of curiosity do you have your journeyman's book yet?

Edited to add: nepotism and "good ol boy" networks are pretty much how business gets done everywhere, regardless of industry. A lot of people have this knee jerk reaction against such things and don't stop to consider this is the working end of "Networking".

While I agree with you, the claim programmers are generally underpaid got me thinking. If every programmer earns less compared to the field, nobody really does. (Think of the famous quote in The Incredibles: If everybody's incredible, nobody is.)

So either we're all underpaid compared to the value we generate, or we all overvalue everything we create.

Strange that there are no reliable metrics in a field filled with zeros and ones.

How does that imply that programmers are underpaid?

I think your implication that the value of trades are somehow worth less than the value programming brings to society is unwarranted.

My viewpoint is from sheer volume of knowledge/skillset required to perform the basic task and the amount of effort required to stay current on the craft.

Then why don't you?

I'm not particularly passionate about welding, whereas I derive real pleasure from programming. For myself this enjoyment is sufficiently valuable to more than offset the economic loss. YMMV.

Sure - the fun of programming (or the relative comfort of a desk job) is a benefit of the job. That's why you're not necessarily underpaid just because a welder can earn more.

You are also assuming that you would be a good welder. Welding is incredibly difficult to do well, and the best ones deserve the good salary that they receive.

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