Comment by wpietri | Hacker News Reader

Comment by wpietri | Hacker News Reader

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That's becoming my take as well.

I think the tech industry was, at least for a while, an exception here. Developers were so hard to get and retain that the power of individual workers did a lot to keep things sane. But I think that power is, for a variety of reasons, waning. If we want to keep our unusually good working conditions, and especially if we want to make sure our colleagues enjoy them as well, then I think collective action is going to become more and more necessary.

(For those wondering why, a key part is the intrinsic size difference. It's much easier to lose one employee than to lose your full-time job. This inherent power imbalance is easily exploited.)

For the next thing I start, I've been looking into worker- and member-owned co-op structures. It turns out some of my favorite businesses are run that way, from my local bakery (Arizmendi) to my favorite outdoor goods company, REI. My explorations are early yet, but I'm seeing a lot to be optimistic about. I think it's possible to combine the discipline of a value-for-money business with the mission orientation of a not-for-profit. For example, imagine if WhatsApp had been a worker- or member-owned co-op. If instead of selling to Facebook, they'd just kept making the thing they thought the world needed.

If this resonates with people, feel free to contact me on email or Twitter. Maybe we can get a mailing list together for further discussion.

"For example, imagine if WhatsApp had been a worker- or member-owned co-op."

Given the price-per-employee WhatsApp got, they might have agreed to a buyout sooner as a co-op.

If it were possible to sell out, of course. But that depends a lot on the bylaws. And selling out also depends on the people who join.

I'll also note that there's nothing incompatible between being a worker-owned co-op and making a lot of money. Whatsapp had plenty of potential to generate revenue. Forbes estimates that it's making $4 billion/year. They could have paid their small staff incredibly well without having to sell out.

And one thing that people can't easily buy is interesting work. Even at my modest-for-a-tech-worker income, I'm choosing work by who I'm with and how interesting it is. If people already have more money than they can plausibly spend, would they take even more money to stop doing something they love, something that lets them influence the world at enormous scale? Some would, I'm sure. Some wouldn't.

You should contact Human Agenda and join their Mondragon Trip (http://www.humanagenda.net/tour-the-mondragon-cooperatives/). Mondragon, as you probably know, is the home of the world's largest worker-coop federation's HQ and its namesake. Through Human Agenda you can get a tour of their HQ and potentially a chance to meet worker owners and see their facilities (a number of which are in the town.) You can also check out their university and quality of life. I've been there myself and it's highly recommended if you want to go this direction.

Also, the Arizmendi cooperative is named after the founder of Mondragon, Jose Maria Arizmendiarrieta.

Mondragon is an ethnocentric, nationalist organization with strong political orientations. It's not a general example of what anyone would think of as a regular cooperative.

If a small part of Vermont where 'its own country' and constantly under threat of economic annexation from the US or Canada, well, people might organize differently than they do in California.

That's an extreme perspective.

Mondragon is about as "nationalist" and "ethnocentric" as Ford, Samsung, or Sony. I'm not sure what "strong political orientations" is supposed to mean; I can easily point to just about any international corporation and find evidence of strong political "orientations" expressed by the board or its corporate executives and evidence of the corporation pursuing their political interests as well.

Also, Mondragon cooperative is regarded as a world leader in worker coops, so unless you're talking about people who know absolutely nothing about cooperatives, I think Mondragon remains a pretty "general" example of what's possible for cooperative business. In any case, it's certainly not clear what you think is a "regular cooperative."

> If a small part of Vermont where 'its own country' and constantly under threat of economic annexation from the US or Canada, well, people might organize differently than they do in California.

Well, Basque is not under threat of economic annexation from Spain; it's already annexed. People in Basque do often oppose the Spanish government for nationalist reasons, but it's just one of many reasons considering that the internal struggle in Spain is a country-wide issue and not reserved to Basque. And nationalism in the region is hardly evidence that Mondragon itself is a nationalistic entity. Lastly, it's very unlikely that a region "under threat of annexation" would choose to develop cooperatives to maintain economic autonomy. The reason Mondragon succeeded was primarily because of the influence of Arizmendiarrieta, and he spent around 10 years trying to convince people to start a cooperative in Basque (in other words, people in Basque did not automatically acclimate to the idea of a worker owned cooperative.) Arizmendiarrieta himself was not from Basque and did not speak Euskera natively, and did not entreat his followers to see cooperatives as a uniquely Basque enterprise, hence why it is now an international organization rather than secluded to the northern Spanish region.

Additionally, worker owned cooperatives aren't unique to Basque, Spain, or even Europe. And it's not like everyone in Basque worships Mondragon either. I am no expert on this, but I've been to Basque, visited Mondragon, and interviewed a number of people on the subject of cooperatives in Spain. From what I can tell, your perspective here is quite warped from reality.

Mondragon employs almost 100K people in a 'nation' of 3.5M people. It's inexorably tied to the national struggle of 'Basque People' in their attempts to achieve some degree of economic autonomy while ostensibly 'controlled' by another group with whom they have had historical antagonisms.

If there were no 'Basque People' I submit there would be no Mondragon.

In Quebec, where I live, there's a similar dynamic, and a host of national entities: telecoms, energy, finance etc. were taken over in an ethnocentric fashion, quite literally stated by the managers of the organizations. As a non-Quebecer, when I opened my bank account at 'Desjardins' (French/Quebecois almost cooperative style bank), they referred to themselves as 'nous' (meaning 'us') and to myself as 'vous' (meaning you, plural), as though there was a clear distinction in their minds. Their employment at Desjardins bank is accepted at least some extent as a 'cause', tied to the nationalist movement. I'm not offended by it as I'm not really ethnically 'Quebecois' but the boundary lines were crystal clear.

This type of thing is common and normal in the world, something that 'New Worlders' often struggle with because we view things through a different lens. I think this causes us to misinterpret important dynamics, and not grasp what's actually happening with causes such as Mondragon, and certain kinds of socialized services in other European countries.

Here's an interesting (IMO) one:

https://www.windings.com/about-us/

> For more than 50 years, Windings has provided engineered electromagnetic solutions for critical applications in Aerospace, Defense, Automotive, Medical, Oil & Gas and general Factory Automation. As a full-service provider, Windings is a leader in the design, test, manufacture and support of custom electric motors, generators and related components including rotors, stators, lamination stacks and insulation systems.

> Windings business structure was converted to an Employee Stock Ownership Plan (ESOP) in 1998 and we have been 100% employee owned since 2008. Being 100% employee owned means that every one of our 100+ employees, and only our employees, is either an owner or is on the path to becoming an owner.

Thanks! Do you have a connection to it? I'd be very curious to hear an inside take.

I don't. I was looking for someone to design a motor and just happened to notice.

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