1. The program relies on enforcement of property rights and environmental regulation so that illegal deforestation doesn't increase to compensate 2. "Leakage". Forest A is protected but Forest B is then logged instead. 3. Indigenous rights need to be respected and frequently aren't. This bloke [1] for example bought 50% of the carbon rights from indigenous Peruvians who can't even read or write. 4. There are concerns about greenwashing. [2] Norway is by far the biggest contributor to REDD+ with over $2.5bn contributed... but they are also the world's 5th biggest oil exporter.
These challenges can probably be overcome with better oversight and greater commitment from the international community, but the desire just doesn't seem to be there.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20121113114554/http://sixtyminut... [2] https://redd-monitor.org/2019/01/08/norways-support-for-redd...
More precisely: if the market value of palm oil is greater than that of healthy forest, there will be incentives to destroy the forest. That only translates to "the forest will be destroyed" where people / societies have no other values in play beyond their incentives.
Incentives matter, for sure, and using them as a tool to encourage preservation is a good arrow to consider stocking the quiver with. But something important is lost if we assume they're the only things that matter; it's essentially an acceptance of the idea there are no values besides incentives.
[edited "More precisely" conditional sentence to actually make sense, I accidentally swapped the hypothetical and asserted consequence when I typed it out the first time]
No the idea is the opposite - if the market value of healthy forest is greater than that of palm oil the idea is people will be incentivised to not destroy the forest because it's worth more than the palm oil.
Isn't that basically just a non-monetary incentive?
You might find that you are opposed to genocide, even if it happens remotely and is no immediate skin of your nose, or that a lost child bothers you and motivates you to act to try fix the situation, even for a child not connected to your tribe or recognized responsibility. What's going on in those situations? Is that an incentive? I suppose you could work with a definition of incentive that might include it, but I think it's useful to distinguish what's going on in situations like that from situations where immediate personal benefit is more clear. One is more or less about what you want your life to be more like, the other is more or less about what you want the world to be more like.
Usually when I see industrial-scale impacts, there's incentives capital is responding too.
Sadly, It does not work like that.
Alive African lions have a economic value in tourism, they are still being decimated by external companies that hire local furtives to do the job. You could send every children in poor countries at the university and Translational companies and mafias still would kill the last lions and probably a few rangers to sell its bones in the black market.
If you pay poor countries to not distroy the forest you are just building a blackmailing system. First, a lot of this money will never reach poor people. Local people will be increasily frustrated, and in a couple of years the question will be: "Keep paying me or somebody will burn the forest". We would be funding accelerating the pressure to distroy rainforests (because you are funding the people that will distroy nature at the exact second that you will quit the area).
The same is happening in Europe, with modern environmental laws and millions of euro invested in saving big predators. Norway has like 50 wolves. Spain is paying farmers for not killing big predators (being paid for agreeing to respect the law, none less!), in national parks!. We don't have stable populations of wolves in any of our national parks in fact and talking about reintroduction is taboo, even when we have evident problems with the explosion of populations of wild ungulates and invasion of national parks by cattle.
After millions of money raining over this areas, we still find decapitated wolves hanging from trafic stops or floating in public pools "goodfather style, and people more angry than ever about wolves and asking for more money each month. We had the exact same mathusalem cow killed "by wolves" four times in four different places, and being paid four times. Is a scam.
Support conservationists or environmental police instead. This will trow much better results in the end.
It seems that the same people that burned most forests the last year will return to finish the job this year, or in 2021 if some trees still remain. Until killing the last tree and the last blue finch.
Is just too easy for criminals.
http://theconversation.com/palm-oil-scourge-of-the-earth-or-...
We’re in this situation because powerful commercial entities created a market unbalance for decades, if not centuries, taking advantage of weaker/poorer countries.
Your argument seems to be come down to “let’s stop doing that”, when basically none of the parties involved in tipping the balance seem to care about the issue in the first place. What entity would you see having incentives and the power to change the current situation ?
Reading the article, it seems it’s just complicated with no clear cut way out.
Spoiler: the money is spend and happily pocketed by the target audience, who then find ways to do the other economically profitable thing as well.
err... isn't that the intended outcome?
The money is getting to who we wanted it to get to and it's not stopping them running their businesses and creating value. That's all good isn't it? We'd love to be able to pay people in the Amazon to protect the forests and still develop themselves economically.
I mean, it's a matter of clearly defining goals and KPIs of course, but that's easier said than done.
Well you left that bit out of your comment!
You just said they took the money and managed to make money with their land anyway while meeting the agreement, which sounded like a perfect situation!
It’s funny watching people talk past each other on the internet. You actually quoted that bit of his comment above.