Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-10-02/the-tr...
Let me highlight a key passage:
"Even this understates the change, because the actual way that stock brokers work today is that you keep some cash in your brokerage account to fund potential trades, and the broker earns interest on that cash and pays you less than it earns, and all the trading stuff is almost irrelevant. ... Commissions are way down there; in 2018, they represented a bit less than 7% of Schwab’s net revenue."
I don't think this is about consolidation in the brokerage space because of zero fees. I think this is about investment banks getting into the retail space (see Goldman's Apple card).
Once again, I rely on Matt Levine to explain it ("Goldman Has Some Boring Plans"):
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-01-29/goldma...
The whole thing is worth a read, but here is one key paragraph:
"One way to interpret this is that Goldman has embarked on a quest to be boring. This interpretation seems plainly correct. The old Goldman approach—making a lot of money on lumpy investment-banking fees, risky balance-sheet-intensive trading, and both-lumpy-and-risky principal investing—is disfavored in modern banking. It is disfavored by regulation (the Volcker Rule, capital requirements) and by market conditions, but it is also particularly disfavored by Goldman’s own investors, who want reliable recurring revenues."
Edit: I should add this interpretation is also the one offered by the author of the NY times article, although the author also claims that slashed fees played a role:
"It continues Morgan Stanley’s strategy of increasingly focusing on asset management rather than investment banking and high-stakes trading, betting on steady fees over bigger paydays and bigger risks."
I also like the integration that the Apple Card has with Apple Wallet. I'm not all-in on Apple, I don't own a Mac anymore, but the iPhone and closely related bits are just really nice.
https://www.kalzumeus.com/2019/6/26/how-brokerages-make-mone...
The writing was on the wall for E-Trade. Banking is in an ebb of consolidation. E-Trade and TD Ameritrade had to sell once Interactive Brokers / Schwab started that game of dropping commission. They didnt add enough other value besides stock trading. They are a component to a larger banking suite.
I have to think Wealthfront and Betterment are targets now too. I have to think American Express is still a viable target as well.
The next thing empires SHOULD be looking at, is overall life management software. Personal Capital, YNAB.
I am somewhat surprised nobody offers an abstracted savings account, that handles 401k, IRA, HSA, paying rent and bills, and access to credit. Instead of showing you the balance of each account, it would show you how much you have, how much you need in the future, and how much you can spend today. And then automatically apply extra cash to the best spots, and automatically use credit and pay it off. Using credit AS part of the budget process. Not completely dissimilar from Singapore's Central Provident Fund.
All businesses are consolidating due to economies of scale and low marginal costs from automation and computing power.
> I am somewhat surprised nobody offers an abstracted savings account, that handles 401k, IRA, HSA, paying rent and bills, and access to credit.
There are numerous differing laws for each kind of account and required disclosures. You also can’t have joint tax advantaged retirement savings accounts.
And a lack of trust busting. Government deregulation, cheap cash, big exits.
>There are numerous differing laws for each kind
Thats why I said an abstraction. All the underlying accounts exist, but are hidden behind a layer. You can peak in and see individual balances, but thats not how the data is presented to you. You dont interact with it and make decisions based on the components. You set parameters, percentages, and targets, and it autobalances the rest. It would need to be able to tap into employer 401K's to make holistic decisions, doing something like blooom combined with automatic tax efficient fund placement. Automatic output of tax documents.
Automatic HSA tagging. Scan and digitize receipts. Maybe even a more advanced "invest the hsa, keep track of the receipts, set targets for optimal reimbursement (potentially years down the road.)" There is so much innovation space left on the consumer experience side of banking.
Like Personal Capital, I have to think Credit Karma is an attractive buy as well, getting into life management: a bank that does your taxes for you, that comparison shops your auto insurance. Personal Capital, Credit Karma, M1, Blooom, Angieslist, HomeAdvisor, and TrueCar would be a really slick bundle if some VC wanted to make an Office 365/AdobeCloud of life management.
I think it'd be complicated to regulate from a risk perspective. Checking and savings accounts get insured by the FDIC, how do you insure a large pile of money invested practically everywhere in varying risky scenarios? You'd need to at least create a boundary between "FDIC-insured low interest funds" and "your results may vary but will probably be fine" funds.
the important part being to eliminate too many choices. the more choices people have, the more chances they choose a suboptimal one or panic and choose nothing. (paradox of choice.)
It was a cool idea - basically they'd auto invest some portion into a total market index, pick the best rates for things in your 401k, etc.
Think of the traditional baby boomer era story-- "Dad brings home the paycheque, Mom does the budget."
Give me Mom as a service. Don't let me touch my full salary, just what's left after a responsible adult has done with it.
Let me plug in every account I have, and set up rules like
* Pay the rent on the first cheque of the month and the electric company on the second
* Pay credit cards in full up to a total of $1200/month; if beyond that pay towards the highest rates first while still covering minimum balances
* If there's a break in of cash flow, draw down from savings to $500 to retain the current pay rates, then drop payments on all accounts to minimum.
* Leave $150 per week from cash flow where I can withdraw it for petty cash.
* Anything unspoken for is sent to an automatic purchase of (broad index fund|treasury debt|Pokemon cards) on a weekly basis
After a few years of using the account with $150 per week on it, you check the statement and see that the money that Mom-as-a-service has withheld from you is enough to buy the entirety of Alberta.
What needs to be displayed to you is some equivalent to cash flow or net income combined with a budget. Knowing you spend x on rent and y on food a month, are you on track to keep cash flow positive?
What if the US joins the negative/penalty-interest club like the Eurozone countries?
I will point out that most of the money is made in the overnight REPO market, and those rates seem to be shooting higher even as the interest rates are cut.
I know, I am his biggest fan, but this is Matt Levine again on the REPO rates:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-09-30/a-repo...
If everybody pours their money into a us equity index every month, the value of us stocks will go up, absent of any perceived change in value.
Schwab earned 57% of revenues from net interest on cash
For an established bank like MS, the net-interest is a drop in the bucket. The strategy here is about getting a young, educated, well-off retail base.
The demographic trends are such that there is a multi-trillion inter-generational wealth transfer occurring over the next decade as the baby-boomers pass on their wealth to their millennial kids. You want to get in front of that.
You rely on someone who never worked for a brokerage to teach you how brokerages worked?
> and the broker earns interest on that cash and pays you less than it earns
This has been standard practice forever. It isn't a secret. Also, with interest rates as low as they are, I don't think it is a move for the interest on the cash sitting in these accounts.
> and all the trading stuff is almost irrelevant
Irrelevant? The "trading stuff" is data. Trading commissions isn't that important, but the data is very valuable.
> I don't think this is about consolidation in the brokerage space because of zero fees.
That's right. It isn't about zero fees. It's about data. Trading/investing/customer data. Zero fees is to lure more customers and get more data. Just like Microsoft giving away their OS for "free". Just like google/facebook/etc giving away their services for "free". "Free trades" ( no fee trades ) are about getting more customers, more trades and more data.
> I think this is about investment banks getting into the retail space (see Goldman's Apple card).
It isn't about getting into retail space. Goldman isn't going open a store in malls around the country and sell t-shirts. Goldman's Apple Card is about data.
From wall street to tech to even telcoms...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22375269
everybody is positioning themselves for the data goldrush. Even nations and regional blocs like the EU are doing so.
Whether data has intrinsic valuable or not, who really knows. But those with money and power have decided it has value and we are off to the races.
That said, what's the current economic model for independent online brokerages?
Sell order flow? Rate arbitrage off uninvested assets?
Dutch source, do use a translator https://www.tijd.be/markten-live/nieuws/algemeen/nieuwe-eige...
"Is it easier for a pan European company to keep big US competition like Robin Hood and Ameritrade out?
Niehage: 'The companies you name are very badly positioned for Europe. Their economic model is based on two pillars. Firstly, they want to offer everything for free. But if you offer all services for free, you have to earn money with the capital in the investors' accounts. That is possible in the US, where you can still get 2% of interest. In Europe, with zero interest rates, that's very different.'
And the second pillar of their economic model?
Niehage: 'That's the high frequency traders. As far as I know, Robin Hood sells its customer orders to this kind of parties. They are prepared to pay good money for that. According to the European MiFID II-regulation, that is illegal. Those two examples show that the US and EU markets are totally different. That's why American brokers have difficulties breaking into the EU market.' "
Is this front running (and hence illegal), or do they mean to say customer trades, or something else?
Also I don't define front running that way, FINRA does.
https://www.finra.org/rules-guidance/rulebooks/finra-rules/5...
Retail order flow is worth buying because it's what's called "non-toxic". That means the retail traders generally don't know which way the market is going, ie they are either wrong or too small to make the market move against the market maker.
Contrast that to trading against a hedge fund which might have a better clue and is potentially large enough to push the market in some stock.
Liquidity is unlike hamburgers in that there is a risk profile associated with it if you sell it to anyone who wants it. Adverse selection happens as detailed elsewhere; you lose money on their custom, potentially a lot of money relative to the margin on your product.
Certain buyers of liquidity are, like essentially all buyers of hamburgers, functionally riskless. You can profitably sell your product to them at a positive margin all day long, at virtually any quantity they could demand.
Payment for order flow is setting up a liquidity stand in a place where you structurally only get the non-risky customers. That liquidity stand is, like a hamburger shop, a cash machine, and justifies CapEx and OpEx to run. Part of the OpEx is paying your landlord for prominent placement of your liquidity stand in front of willing customers who are buying that sweet, sweet liquidity you're selling.
The price of liquidity changes moment-to-moment based on market conditions but is effectively standardized by law nationwide (NBBO). You are not overcharging your customers for liquidity; they pay the same price literally anyone in the country buying it in that instant does and you can, at your option, discount it further to reward them for buying it from you.
You are making superior margins on their custom because you don't inevitably lose lots of money by being in the liquidity business. The liquidity stand down the street is doing the same thing; your vicious competition against each other has caused the prices for your product to crater, to the enduring joy of the people who line up daily to buy your liquidity.
What happens when we have another market crash and everyone is broke because they put money they would have saved into investments instead and now they have no safety net?
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scpwps/ecb.wp2283~2ccc0749...
One problem that becomes a bit hard is that in the retail sector if interest rates go below zero people are willing to simply withdraw the money, which would hurt banks' ability to lend. (Eg. the central bank would have to add funding via some mechanism, such as lowering the fractional ratio, or QE . [Or paying interest on reserves. But that would go against the negative interest on excess reserves.])
The paper concludes that the negative interest rates resulted in more loans.
How did holding money become so worthless in the first place?
Can this really be natural, or is there massive central bank shenaningans behind it? Clearly savers lose, but who benefits?
If that economy expands without corresponding increase in the money supply, then prices go down (because there are more stuff, but the same amount of money, so the same amount of money now represent more stuff). But this represents a deflation, which would auto-magically counteract the expansion, because it would incentivize people to wait and spend just at the last minute. (Time value of money and all would revert, wages would fall, fixed amount mortgages would start to spiral out, and all the regular deflation doomsday scenarios.) So the central banks make sure that even in an expanding economy the money supply "stays ahead" of the expansion of the economy. Targeting 2%. (And usually falling short, so inflation is somewhere between 1-2%.)
So holding money did not became worthless, quite the opposite, holding cash is now better than holding it in a bank. But the central bank has only a few policy tools available, and one of them is the interest rate manipulation.
The central banks want to encourage people to make some investments, to take on some risk, or at least spend. Sure, one way is to simply fund the government, as that usually seems the least risky. And it's not like there's nothing to spend on - the Green New Deal and co, but governments are quite reluctant to do so.
That was all I was talking about. Why isn't that happening anymore?
The people running the show have zero understanding of how banking works. And no, I’m not being arrogant - negative rates destroy capital, which is not what you want in a bank.
If you look at the largest European banks, they are all very weak (due to many factors, not just this one). However, negative rates is making them weaker.
Further, the aging demographics of Europe are going to continue to drive lower and lower growth.
In sum, I believe that all of this will cause smart money to leave Europe. At least in part as a hedge if nothing else.
There is also little empirical evidence that such low rates help (or no evidence, because negative rates were never tried before). Japan's had low rates for a while and they didn't seem to help, but the argument could be made that without those low rates the situation would be even worse (you could find economists who'd argue both sides). Personally I think it's better to err on the side of favouring whatever the "market rate" of interest would be (the rate if the central bank was taking no action to alter the supply of money or loans), and I'm very doubtful that would be negative.
https://www.ft.com/content/478fe908-5168-11ea-8841-482eed003...
Sweden raised rates recently, but only back to zero.
Swedish banks - for some reason - simply waited for the NIRP to pass and moaned.
[from the link]: Johan Torgeby, chief executive of one of Sweden’s largest banks SEB, says lenders involved in fixed income “struggled for years” and calls the end of sub-zero rates “good news”. He adds: “We have never really understood what effect negative yields have on [boosting] consumption.”
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/aug/13/danish-bank-la...
It certainly helps expanding the money supply. That should help increase savings, that then can be loaned out. (And simply increasing savings doesn't automatically lead to more investment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saving_identity - I know wikipedia is not a proper source, sorry, anyway: "This identity only holds true because investment here is defined as including inventory accumulation, both deliberate and unintended. As such, this does not imply that an increase in saving must lead directly to an increase in investment. Indeed, businesses may respond to increased inventories by decreasing both output and intended investment.")
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scpwps/ecb.wp2283~2ccc0749...
"Given this finding and its robustness when tested using a variety of standard robustness checks, we conclude that NIRP has acted as an empowerment to the ECB’s asset purchase programme (APP). Banks most reliant on retail deposits have the strongest incentive to convert their EL (excess liquidity), created by the APP, into loans - and our results document that they did so."
> Personally I think it's better to err on the side of favouring whatever the "market rate" of interest would be (the rate if the central bank was taking no action to alter the supply of money or loans), and I'm very doubtful that would be negative.
Isn't the problem that the market rate would lead us to deflation?
Yep, but in the longer term (decades), all other things being equal a country that is saving 2% will have less investment taking place than that same country saving 5%.
> Banks most reliant on retail deposits have the strongest incentive to convert their EL (excess liquidity), created by the APP, into loans - and our results document that they did so.
One problem is we don't have clear insight into how risky these loans are. If a bank is incentivised to give out loans just to avoid having to pay the central bank interest, it may end up taking on riskier loans than it otherwise would have (if it didn't think they were too risky, it would already have made them). And even if this is not the case, and it's only giving loans because now even a low return of e.g. 0.5% looks good, there's a limit on how cheaply it can offer loans because it still has to cover all its own costs.
>Isn't the problem that the market rate would lead us to deflation?
Empirically it's not clear that would definitely lead to worse outcomes. Europe and the US managed to sustain high rates of growth during deflationary times throughout the 19th century, and while there were crashes during that period they weren't as severe as the Great Depression. In the short run it would definitely be painful, as savings rates increased, but there's a hard cap on this. E.g. everybody needs to eat, they're not going to starve themselves for a week just because food will be marginally cheaper next week. Like how people kept buying computers during the 2000s even though the price of compute was halving every year.
There's an interesting argument for why deflation is bad that I read in a labour economics textbook once, termed wage stickiness. Essentially, if there's deflation we might see labour prices falling every year (but falling less than other prices, so purchasing power still increases). Wage floors (minimum wages, inflexible contracts) however prevent this from happening, prevent the market from clearing. This is one reason unemployment was so bad during the great depression: wage floors introduced by the government to stabilise things ended up preventing wages from adjusting to the new price levels, causing unemployment as the value of good produced wasn't enough to pay those wages. Imagine if the price of every good fell by 90% today: suddenly a $10 minimum wage would be the equivalent of a $100 minimum wage in real terms, causing massive unemployment.
Politically, that's a hard problem to solve, so I can see why many people prefer inflation.
Sure, but that means they are rather different economies. If one economy can save 5% it will - by definition of the identity - invest 5%, so it'll grow much faster. If it can find the demand to service, which directly leads back to the problem of consumption (spending vs saving).
The interest rate should be orthogonal to actually saving or spending. It just happens that since we want stability of prices, coins, notes, money in our accounts, and steady growth, instead of constant 2.00% central bank interest rate we vary the rate. If the central bank could simply rewrite a lot of numbers all around it could keep the base rate constant. But people would go mad, and people would come up with a new model that just translates back everything and blurts out the actual money supply and base rate changes.
Yes, there's talk about zombie corps, because money is cheap. But so is money to invest in new companies to compete with these zombies. Plus, if they don't make real money, then investing them makes no sense, buying their bonds make no sense, and extending them credit makes no sense, no matter how small the interest rate is. (Sure, they can live on smaller margins, but that doesn't make them literal zombies.)
Even in a negative interest situation creditors still need to price in risks. (People still need to pay them back on time. There's still administration and other kinds of overhead as you said.) For example the Danish mortgages are low risk, that's why the bank was able to offer them at negative rates. The moment negative interest rates start to seep into retail people will start to buy shit like there's no tomorrow. Which will push inflation up, and then the central bank moves out of the negative regime. And if all else fails, the central bank can simply buy government bonds, basically financing and encouraging public spending, which should open up the legislature to lower taxes, procure more stuff, etc.
> One problem is we don't have clear insight into how risky these loans are. If a bank is incentivised to give out loans just to avoid having to pay the central bank interest, it may end up taking on riskier loans than it otherwise would have (if it didn't think they were too risky, it would already have made them).
Agreed, yet in the face of deflation even risky busywork is better than nothing. At that point it's up to people, investors, speculators, legislators, to take risks and invest (to increase efficiency so more of the output becomes economic surplus which can be then spent/invested) or consume (to increase demand so investment becomes profitable).
The financial sector can scream all it wants about being squeezed tight, but it's not like they are the paragons of efficiency and foresight. Sometimes they are too risky (2008) sometimes they are too cautious (last year - all the talk about an impending recession, too long business cycle, etc.). And ultimately it's up to the population to prod their legislature to spend. (Related, but might be too cutting-edge: https://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2020/02/new-paper-fiscal-... - tl;dr a model that reproduces a lot of the empirical data, and shows how risk free return [gov debt] pays for itself)
The latest Eurostat report ( https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/10159412/2-2... ) states EU inflation is around 1.4%. (0.2 %points of that is energy, which is pretty much just natural resource extraction, and should be ignored, as it's not something that results in economic growth in the EU - I'd argue.) So still a bit far from the 2% mark.
But at least the curve inches up.
> Like how people kept buying computers during the 2000s even though the price of compute was halving every year.
Interesting example. A lot of people bought the new computer because it enabled different things. And "decommissioned" the old one because it got obsolete. The desire for new coupled with the low price (thanks to mass production of standardized components) allowed people to substitute their old computer, even though they had to pay the "transaction price" (the price of the new computer, plus setup).
Similarly some folks argue that a Tesla car is so much better all around and it just happens to be an EV. (Though they are pretty pricey, so mass adoption is not happening, but stock prices indicate that a lot of folks think it or something like that will indeed happen.)
Companies/businesses were relatively slow to replace their computers. The large technology churn was (and is) fueled by newcomers, and people replacing their old rig.
That said, I have no problem with experimenting with deflation (especially because I despise these dumb hard-limit policies like minimum wage - https://danluu.com/discontinuities/ ), just as I have no problem with negative interest rates (because our central banks [and models, interchangeably] seem to understand that better).
What you're asking is sort of like this, "the big dam is breaking apart right now because of all the rain, and the rain isn't letting up. What do we do?"
Demographic challenges are really tough to overcome because they affect the demand of everything. As people have fewer kids, there is not as much need for schools, or teachers, or pencils, or wood to make those pencils...
As people get older, they tend to want smaller houses (kids are grown and out of the house). Smaller houses use less wood, less heating and air conditioning, etc.
One last thought for you: Japan, doesn't have millennials. That's right - there was never a second big population boom after their baby boomer generation.
Still with these items, I agree that a move to 0 commission trading will cause a shift.
https://www.kalzumeus.com/2019/6/26/how-brokerages-make-mone...
Fidelity and Vanguard don't have such clauses. Hope Morgan Stanley fixes this.
https://us.etrade.com/l/f/asset-protection
Basically everyone has $500k insured in their trading account. Are you concerned about people with more than that, or concerned that it wouldn't cover hacking?
Having said that, I’d be surprised if E Trade were not legally required to cover losses in the event of account break ins, regardless of what their customer agreement says.
I'm sure you could pay a lawyer enough to argue that their own site security is under their control.
How is that possible/legal?
Stop orders execute a market trade when the price hits a limit.
So, there’s a heuristic around when “the market price hits the limit”.
If you execute too late, it might not execute at all. Too close to the limit, and it might cross back over. Also, stop orders are usually done to limit losses, so adding delay increases exposure to loss.
https://www.diffen.com/difference/Limit_Order_vs_Stop_Order
Limit orders typically have higher commissions. Maybe stop orders were being confusingly marketed as limit orders?
Totally my opinion but I'd stay away from the upstarts like M1 & Robinhood (saying this as a current M1 customer). With free trades from e-trade / schwab / td / etc. it just doesn't make sense anymore, and things seem to move way slower (for instance, I think M1 just today has their tax data integrations going live, but large shops have been set up for longer). I know some people like Robinhood and the stripped down interfaces but if you're already comfortable with interacting with the large-shop software (which I assume you are, going through e-trade and capital one), you're gonna get a lot more from that side of the market than the upstarts.
It ought to be pretty straightforward to implement this with some sanely written software connecting to your brokerage of choice. You may lose out on revenue streams like securities lending, but it's probably not that much anyway. Anyone have any experience with this?
They dont actually own the assets
(https://www.brokerage-review.com/investing-firm/assets-under...)
Jpm has Chase as it's retail platform. But it lags behind in trading features.
Why not?
Which of those dynamics exists for Robinhood?