eBay bans sales of face masks and hand sanitizers to combat price gouging
cnbc.com
cnbc.com
Letting prices rise is one way to increase production in a hurry. If the mask producers only get to make the same profit margin regardless of demand, why bother fronting the money to increase stock or investing in extra storage space, if there is no guarantee they will be able to recoup those costs during black swans?
While it may be too late for this immediate epidemic, it also incentivizes middlemen to warehouse goods like masks which will help for the next epidemic.
From Wikipedia:
The new Whig administration, influenced by the doctrine of laissez-faire,[11] believed that the market would provide the food needed, and they refused to intervene against food exports to England, then halted the previous government's food and relief works, leaving many hundreds of thousands of people without any work, money, or food.
Charles Trevelyan, who was in charge of the administration of government relief, limited the Government's food aid programme because of a firm belief in laissez-faire.[98]
One year later, the British government did intervene by building workhouses to help house the poor tenant farmers. However this made the situation worse because instead of the British government funding the houses, they taxed the Irish landowners triggering mass evictions of the poor tenant farmers.
"Health policy" has no exemption from economics. The way you get enough masks during high demand is by someone stockpiling them. If you want them to be cheap, someone has to stockpile even more of them. That could be the government, but only if they thought to do it ahead of time.
If they didn't, now you've got a market problem that pricing is the best way to address -- prohibiting price from rising due to demand only causes misallocation, because people who have more masks than they need have a reduced incentive to sell them to the people who need them. The first guy in the store buys fifty when he only needed one because he wanted to be sure to have enough, but then the store runs out before everyone has one and there are fifty unused masks in the one guy's basement.
Charging more is how you get him to not buy more than he needed.
Maybe he won't give anything up because price might keep going up and whenever he needs the masks they will be so costly he cannot afford them. Or maybe the price rise will give some party an incentive to stockpile masks because making money is a clear incentive instead of a more nebulous "avoid a health crisis".
The lead time to start manufacturing simple products like masks isn't that long. That puts a time limit on the high prices -- even if the demand stays high, supply catches up to it. (Compare this to, say, housing where increasing supply is constrained by zoning which prevents supply from increasing in response to demand.)
You are talking about economics like a mathematical theorem when you know full well that economic behavior is an emergent social phenomenon and that people are not pure economic automata. This is disingenuous at best and dangerous at worst.
Now an interesting plot twist: Those masks not only do not protect against coronavirus (because the virus is too small, and can get through), they actually increase the risk of infection (because they serve as virus incubators, especially when they become wet)
Even if the masks were actually being used properly, people who need masks the most after the sick, are the people we pay the lowest, retail workers, food service, people who come in contact with extreme numbers of people on a daily basis.
Well paid tech employees can work from home, take 2 weeks of sick days and continue to make thousands a week.
These people will come into work even if they’re anything short of dying because they’re more likely to live paycheck to paycheck when we don’t pay them enough, and the free market has decided not to give them sick benefits that we all benefit from.
The free market is actually externalizing the issue to all of at this point. Don’t give workers enough sick days and keep all that profit, but then when the workers end up spreading the virus as a result of their boneheaded policies, the public will suffer, and the government will pay dearly.
I doubt it was to help individual citizens and families survive a crisis.
There's absolutely no "free market" anymore during panic.
Which is what pricing is for. If people start hoarding then the price goes up and makes hoarding much more expensive. Not only that, it gives the people with a stockpile a financial incentive to put it on eBay and thereby make it available for distribution to other people. Unless they're prohibited from doing so, in which case they carry on hoarding.
Which generally doesn't have to be ordered, because producers are already inclined to produce more during high demand.
You might also want to worry about the business consequences of ordering suppliers of critical products to spend money increasing capacity on an emergency basis without increasing their sales price. With no way to recover their now-higher costs, what happens when you drive them out of business and then need them again next time?
> and to set rules about distribution like limiting people to one box at a time or whatever
Which fails because some people have a legitimate need to buy in quantity, but it's an administrative nightmare to determine exactly who those people are and each failure to correctly identify results in a large quantity of items not going to people who legitimately need them.
It also violates the social distancing principle. Instead of sending one person from an office to the store to buy a box for each person from the office to take home, now every employee has to individually visit the store and create a new opportunity to transmit or receive an infection with other patrons or staff there.
> Markets are typically closer to economic optimality over the longer run but not in the short term,
There is no principle that markets are more optimal in the long run than the short run. Market failures exist, but they exist where they exist and not where they don't.
A huge demand spike isn't a market failure. The higher prices cause markets to do exactly what you want in that context -- increase production and reduce hoarding.
> and furthermore optimality is not always that important for many commodities that can be stockpiled against future emergencies.
This only works if they actually were stockpiled ahead of time, in which case there wouldn't be such a supply shortage that prices would rise to undesirable levels.
There is effectively no masks for retail in Hong Kong. I could order online, but that avenue has now been cut off.
There is this entire global market place people always seem to forget.
This is basic microeconomics. People haven't forgot it because they never learned it in the first place.
Yes, increasing price makes it so less people can afford it, but it also makes more supply available so more people can buy it. What use is cheap masks when only a small portion of the population can actually get their hands on it because of shortages?
Now apply the same market logic to a future vaccine and you'll have a situation where herd immunity will never be achieved because it won't be profitable to achieve it.
Edit: It's even worse than the above though. Those that won't buy expensive masks/vaccines are also likely to be those most exposed/vulnerable to the disease in the first place. Then, when they're on death's door they will need much more expensive emergency care at the nearest hospital. Letting the market make these kinds of decisions is how the US achieves such dismal health outcomes despite spending a fortune on healthcare.
What use are available masks if only a small portion of the population will have them because of their scarcity?
In the short term, the amount of masks are the same. Pricing them higher doesn't magically cause masks to evaporate, and vendors aren't going to hoard masks when they can fetch a high price on the market. In the long term (when production ramps up in response to the increased price) the production of masks will increase, allowing more people in aggregate to have masks, even if it means that some portion of the population will be priced out.
The alternative is that the supply of masks stay the same in the short term and long term, and the masks is randomly distributed (at best) or held in the hands of a small number of hoarders.
This is an utterly false dichotomy and a big reasons why government exists and is actually useful. Governments can do things (and compel others to do things) that don't fall in the optimal spot on the supply/demand curve. If supply is limited masks should not be "randomly" distributed, but distributing based on who can afford them is probably not any better than random in an epidemiological sense. Should the first people to get vaccinated be billionaires or health-care workers?
This appears to be a shifting of the goal posts. Your original comment remarked about how "Increasing prices on preventative medicine/devices is a great way to make sure fewer people use them", however now you seem to advocate for central allocation of medical resources. If the government is in charge of allocating resources, prices would be a moot point.
Supply and demand ais an elementary model to explore the basic principles of price theory. It is a starting point, not the last word. Listening to people talk about it like an iron law of nature is like doing a high school math problem about how fast a car can get from A to B and thinking you've got the hang of autonomous vehicles.
This is a red herring on the strawman's shoulder. Good. Grief.
I really think you would be much enlightened to listen to Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics audio book. It's really long, but covers this sort of thing just oh so well.
It will help you to answer questions like: how come people in the Soviet Union were starving to death while crops rotted in the field? Among many others...
I am talking about the rigorous microeconomic theory which involves using calculus is required to actually pass an economics course or analyze a commodity market. If you are not familiar with concepts like elasticity, substitution, or the difference between consumer and producer surplus then I suggest you look deeper into microeconomics.
> I am talking about the rigorous microeconomic theory which involves using calculus is required to actually pass an economics course or analyze a commodity market. If you are not familiar with concepts like elasticity, substitution, or the difference between consumer and producer surplus then I suggest you look deeper into microeconomics.
The claim that economics requires "math" has no support - just follow the epistemology on the claim and it's a dead end. It is always stated matter-of-factly as if it is prima facie true. Social sciences have never been about maths outside of a very non-rigorous movement to convert social sciences into hard sciences.
For example, when I go to the store and they don't have what I want, do you believe there is an equation that I am operating on that instructs me in what to do next? If you truly believe this, then you believe in something akin to a religion - that there is some unknown but discoverable equation all of us make decisions with. If you don't believe this, then you cannot find that equations are how I am making decisions, therefore my decisions on how to allocate my resources are guided by something else, thus, microeconomics cannot be based on the maths.
It is also interesting you state calculus as if it is so hard. I haven't found evidence of this while I have seen people struggle more with advanced algebra than with advanced calculus.
Your statement suggests that Sowell somehow got through Harvard, Columbia, and University of Chicago without taking a "real" economics course, or that those courses were inadequate, or that Sowell is incapable of grasping these more advanced conecpts. These sorts of statements really just make you look like an ass, or worse.
BTW, your first sentence is nonsensical. Things that are theoretical do not "operate" because they are not in the physically existent universe, and economics attempts to explain things exclusively in the physically existent universe.
https://www.vvng.com/sb-district-attorneys-office-warns-abou...
(I don't think I'm opposed to the existence of such laws, but I think the issue is complicated.)
It probably isn't as fast as other production lines, but I could probably make 2 masks per second, and if I brought in night workers, that works out to a million masks a week. Not much, but profitable if I could sell them at inflated prices, but not at regular prices.
I don't though, because I don't have the contacts to be able to sell them. And anyway, I'm scared of liability if my masks don't work as expected.
That equipment will sit idle if coronavirus spreads to my bit of the world.
There is a difference between the best tool for the job and better than nothing. Our civilization has a dangerous habit of mandating the best tool for the job, and then unnecessarily suffering with nothing in an emergency.
Moreover, even if the party line that coarse unsealed masks are completely worthless at protecting the wearer from infection were true, it would still make a big difference in the rate of spread of the virus for everyone to start wearing masks! Who cares what the private benefit is when there is definitely a public benefit? And yes, we could make plenty of masks for everyone if we weren't crippled by regulation, hatred of supply and demand, and the attitude that inaction is better than imperfection.
Any scientific article, published or unpublished, peer reviewed or not...
"There is essential agreement that particles with an aerodynamic diameter of 5 µm or less are aerosols, whereas particles >20 µm would be large droplets. Some authors define aerosols as ≤10 µm or even ≤20 µm (Knight 1973; Treanor 2005); particles between 5 and 15 to 20 µm have also been termed ‘intermediate’ (Couch et al. 1966; all values refer to the aerodynamic diameter; for bioaerosols, they refer to the aerodynamic diameter after evaporation). When reviewing the literature, it is therefore important to verify the size of the particles being studied and the authors' definitions."
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsif.200...
some diseases cause larger droplets, other smaller droplets...
I still look forward to a paper describing experimental measurement regarding SARS-COV-II
Also if anyone finds a paper that measured the UV doses (fluences) for N-Log reductions, I would be very happy to read it!
What you could produce is something that, from the outside, looks like masks.
Please don't do this though.
Funding overcapacity in a free market through regulation would be even more prone to abuse than most other regulatory projects. Perhaps the public stockpiling that is done anyways could buy in an artificially erratic pattern to reward manufacturers for readiness?
Regarding eBay in particular I think that it is very valuable that they block at least block sellers that haven't routinely sold the product before, to hinder not only opportunistic speculation but also outright theft which is currently an epidemic of its own.
I'm sure people who needed masks were glad they got what they needed before this stupid ban.
Letting prices rise is the most fair and overall beneficial reaction in this situation. Even for those who can't afford the inflated prices in the very short-term (who wouldn't have access to them anyway due to limited supply), the rise in prices will help give them access to these goods at reasonable prices in the slightly-delayed short term and in the future when similar shortages occur.
I'm seriously blown away by the level of virtue signalling and mental gymnastics going on by those who don't get it, and it scares me that many of those same people hold positions of power to influence public policy.
For just about any consumer good, a large amount of stock is sitting on shelves somewhere that doesn't ship anywhere, and definitely doesn't ship globally. Letting prices rise a bit will create arbitrage markets, which will get the product to where it is needed.
I cannot think of a better thing that I would want people to profit from, than the act of reducing misery around the world.
The people who reduce misery are the ones most deserving of profits and reward.
Profit is not good, if your business is basically black marketing. That is, removing a product from its normal retail chain just so that you create a shortage and then sell with a profit due to the shortage created by you.
And with medical supplies, we need to make sure that all those, who are in desperate need, get the needed supplies.
Also the world supply is short and no amount of lawmaking will materialize more masks. There's not enough masks for everyone and there won't be any time (very) soon, plain and simple. It takes a factory, not a lawmaker to increase the supply.
Brick and mortar stores generally won't raise prices under these circumstances despite the scarcity, because it might create a long term negative reputation even if they can get a bit more profit in the short term. So there's an opportunity for arbitrage that eBay no longer facilitates.
You seem to think it's possible to eliminate all resale markets, and thus eliminate the arbitrage opportunity. Ignoring the fact that hoarding would still exist, I would say such a thing is essentially impossible. Which makes the only way to eliminate the price difference (supply and demand curves held static) to have the store raise prices.
There’s another version of this that goes: stores raise prices and are cleared out for hoarding and arbitrage.
What is the price for masks that will alleviate panic and / or greed?
It is possible to significantly reduce resale markets by going after price-gougers though. It doesn't have to be perfect to have the intended effect, and the threat of being busted is usually enough to push it to the edges. This assumes a certain level of law & order though, so in areas with thriving black markets the effect lessens.
Similarly, it's possible to reduce hoarding by putting a limit sold per customer. Not perfect, but helps. Hoarding definitely happens, but only certain goods are really things people realistically hoard.
There's another argument I'm not seeing brought up, but one that is key to the argument. The reason why we tend to have laws and regulations around situations where people are desperate is a moral obligation. These laws and regulations acknowledge the vulnerability of people in these situations - we are not homo economicus when our lives or those of our loved ones are on the line.
In the case of price gouging, it disproportionately affects the poor. I'm seeing a lot of comments coming from a place of privilege, where people see the upside of higher prices (more stock for them) and not the downsides (a person goes to the store to get some and cannot afford them).
I understand the different points being made, however this is hardly the first time this type of thing has happened or been debated.
I'm all for more solidarity, but this statement, at face value, is pure oppressive communism. Being wealthy should give you certain privileges, otherwise there's no point in even trying to be better / smarter / more skilled / more productive!
Obviously we can argue whether or not any specific intervention should, or should not, affect people differently based on wealth (e.g. I imagine many people would be quite angry if there were traffic lanes for wealthy people, though they seem to be OK with it at airports), but your comment isn't arguing why this specific instance should be equally distributed (health & wellbeing generally isn't, even in EU "socialized medicine" countries - and that's a good thing too, because then the rich can afford to fund new research, drugs & medical procedures).
I'm guessing you're trying to be snarky with this bit?
> anyone price gouging in a crisis must be evil, after all
That's kind of text definition of "evil". Taking advantage of people panicking. Pragmatic, probably rich by the end of the thing, but still evil.
Evil would be denying those goods to someone based on their race/gender/age. Or taking action to prevent more of the good from being made/delivered - which you might notice anti-price-gouging laws do.
Actually, the high prices on eBay should incentivize mask makers to produce more for the general public.
In a pandemic panic scenario the perceived value of an individual mask increases. This is where capitalism should shine
There may not be any spare capacity, and new facilities take time to build.
[Giant sarcasm alert]
Some of us don't have access to said 'brick and mortar' as it's on a different continent.
Also, the free market is why price gouging exists. It's a natural consequence of supply and demand coupled with speculation. The only solution the free market offers is that people don't support price gouging via resellers... Which is what eBay is avoiding doing.
They don't reflect the true supply.
They're just predatory on people who have incomplete information.
I can see how it can be effective when every single person wears these masks outside, like china did, since it would prevent people without symptoms spreading disease as much, but in a situation when we can't supply everyone it is better to leave them for use by medical staff and people in need only.
Yes, the theory only applies perfectly under those conditions, but real world experience is that the theories are quite robust even when all of those "perfect" preconditions are far from perfect.
This is what makes the theories so practically useful in the first place!
Studying how and when the theories break down when "perfection" diminishes is a very interesting part of Economics.
People want masks, there's not enough of them for everyone.
If nobody can buy, the sellers don't sell any (and lose potential profits), so they'll be forced to sell for more reasonable prices. See - no heavy-handed intervention needed, and market prices naturally stabilize to a fair price accounting for what is available and how much of everything else a person is willing to sacrifice in return for the product of interest.
Which means the market for masks bought and sold by individuals is less efficient. This will likely leave more masks for pre-established supply chains, and reduce the incentive for people who aren't part of these supply chains to buy up (or steal!) masks for resale.
These are almost all rent-seekers: They aren't going to make more masks, just obtain them wherever they can get them cheaply (e.g. by buying everything from a supermarket that hasn't jacked up prices nor introduced rationing, or from a thief) and resell them for a higher price. This also often happens in circumvention of existing laws against price-gouging.
Given that consumer hand gel is basically just IPA diluted down to 60% (see edit), I also bought a few tubes of aloe vera to mix it with... I suspect a lot of other people had the same idea.
It looks like there's a lot still available on eBay, so if you really want to by sanitiser, you might as well make your own. Just remember to dilute it a little, 99% won't do too much damage, but it's not particularly kind to your hands if you rub it in on purpose. It's also extremely flammable!
EDIT:
The WHO has published guidelines on making your own gel: https://www.who.int/gpsc/5may/Guide_to_Local_Production.pdf
Interestingly Wikipedia seems to suggest that you should use at least 90% alcohol to kill flu. And that lower concentration formulations are potentially ineffective because they evaporate before killing stuff off. Hospitals use 70-95%. Obviously the higher you go, the more flammable things get.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_sanitizer
This article tested a number of gels vs rinses:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
> Based on our efficacy data, we do not consider any of the tested alcohol-based hand gels to be suitable for hand antisepsis in the health-care setting because their antimicrobial efficacy may be insufficient to prevent the spread of pathogens. Future ethanol-based hand gels used in hospitals should contain at least 80% (v/v) ethanol as the active ingredient and should be as effective as the EN 1500 reference alcohol within 30 s.
Lots of people fall to understand that, which is why we have antibiotic-resistant strains of gonorrhea in the wild now.
For viruses, alcohol rubs are considered better than soap+water because it's harder to screw up alcohol rubs and viruses are easily inactivated.
The big problem with alcohol rubs is that they're useless against spores, so you can still end up with a C. Difficile problem, but that's usually more of a hospital issue.
Unless I am mistaken, this is not the case. Hand sanitizer is based on ethanol, not isopropyl alcohol. Easier on the skin.
—someone who does a lot of chemistry and drinks a lot
And I am not saying all masks are dumb. Just this specific one when it is marketed as protection from the current problem. It is fraud.
I spent six hours on the cancer floors of the local hospital the other day getting injections and we had to wear masks in the lobbies. It was the only part of the hospital I know of that required them. But it is the cancer floors and people have very little immune systems. When I was a few months into chemo my WBC count was under 1200. So low they couldn't do anymore chemo.
So every little bit helps. And perhaps I am a bit angsty thinking that people are using the masks for no reason when there are people that actually need them. Again, I am not talking about the ebay garbage mask. I am talking about the ones that actually could help our sickest people.
So construction mask like that might catch some inhaled droplets but won't do protect others from exhalation if the wearer is ill.
At the time, last week, there were no masks available in the UK except one or two non-mainstream suppliers [and no 3M FFP3 masks that weren't at gouge prices] - the sale price on ebay/Amazon was about 5 times the retail purchase price I could get. For IPA70 the sale price was about 10 times what I found.
[I didn't purchase.]
To play the devil's advocate: price gouging is market efficiency because subsidized products in times of scarcity can be over-bought and resold for more. It reduces demand to those who actually need it.
To play the angel's apprentice: price gouging is wrong when people who aren't made of money need a particular product and need to use it now (inelastic demand). The rich can also bid a product up beyond what a poor person could afford, and always prevent them from acquiring it.
I think in this situation, it might be better for the federal government to crack open the enormous strategic stockpile, distribute masks to make people chill out and seem like they're doing something on-the-ground. Even if it's ineffective if worn properly, the emotional support value may make the difference in mood and trust.
And have money to afford it, something which is not accounted for in the simplistic models of supply and demand that people are promoting with religious levels of certitude up and down this thread.
Essentially creating a command economy for a particular good is missing the larger picture.
Command economies are fallible because they are run by humans with varying levels of trustworthiness and accountability. But they have their uses, and are often far mroe efficient than trying to automate the human factor away completely and live in a idealized model.
You don’t know if you’re infected. You may be asymptotic for days. That’s why we should be wearing face masks — to prevent us from accidentally spreading it when we’re sick.
Berlin's Charite Clinic just had an incident where a shipment of up to 60.000 masks was stolen from the delivery truck (news in german):
https://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/mitte/charite-wurde-komplett...
Edit: it was stolen from an intermediate storage room, not the truck.
...by restricting the sale of items whose purpose is to increase the safety of their users? The inflated prices are bad, but making it harder to acquire such items --- even at higher cost --- seems an even worse situation.
The spokesperson added that eBay is also "taking significant measures to block or quickly remove items" on its marketplace that make unsubstantiated medical claims.
On the other hand, I think this is a far more sensible thing to do.
> On the other hand, I think this is a far more sensible thing to do.
it's sensible as long as the unsubstantiated medical claims are actually unsubstantiated. There's been a lot of stuff going around (including from the CDC) about how masks don't actually protect you from coronavirus and things of that nature - whereas the truth there is that the right kind of masks will protect you if used properly. But there's a limited supply, and telling the masses that they don't work makes getting supply for hospitals easier...
When you arbitrarily constrain prices, you make people wait in lines and clever entrepreneurs stock up to sell at inflated rates on the black market. Terrible policy!
"Who is willing to pay the most" is not necessarily the best metric of dividing essential goods in a crisis. What if nurses and doctors don't have access to masks because a few people that don't even need them buy up all supply, to then price gauge people later?
To be clear, I think what a lot of these vendors were doing was just immoral. I've been buying these masks for years for our shop. Normal pricing is in the range of $12 for a box of 20 (or something like that).
I would allow a 2x to 3x premium and that's that. I don't have an issue with someone who has an inventory that might be very difficult to replenish getting a reasonable premium. That's OK. When people take an item like this and use an emergency to charge $50 for a $0.50 product, well, that's just wrong.
How can someone be a victim if they want to engage in the trade, and explicitly chose to do so?
There’s no such thing as “coerced by the circumstances”. We all need to enter into transactions to not die; we buy food, water, medical care even outside of emergencies. Sometimes those things are expensive due to supply and demand. This instance is no different.
I think you misunderstood what I mean by third party; it's not necessarily a person, legal or natural, interfering with the transaction, it can be a force of nature, circumstances and many other things. It won't go away because you don't like it.
And yes, there is such things as "coerced by circumstances", see above example. Normally, when you buy food, water or medical care you're not in a life threatening situation or perceived or real emergency. If you are then you cannot give informed and free consent, simple as that.
Mine was not an absolute legal opinion but rather a moral/ethical observation.
> The only people buying it are ones who consent to that price—same as any other transaction.
Of course, and I agree 100%. That said, the act of taking advantage of an emergency situation is, I would hope you agree, morally wrong.
When might high pricing be OK?
Well, one example is if someone, through great trouble, was able to purchase a supply of a much-needed item at a high price and wishes to make a profit. If they paid 25x normal price and that, plush shipping, their time, packaging, taxes, whatever, is their cost basis, it might very well be OK for them to sell that item at 50x normal price.
Context is always important.
> How can someone be a victim if they want to engage in the trade, and explicitly chose to do so?
I never said anyone was a victim.
Prices are high because demand is high and supply is low. Demand isn’t going anywhere so the only answer is more supply.
It’s not eBay’s place to tell people who want to buy these things that they should not be able to.
To me the best type of entrepreneurship is one where everyone wins. Plus then you can sleep at night.
In practice, it will take a while to catch up with eBay on customer acquisition front.
Just bought an ultralight tent and sleeping pad off it, cheaper than Ebay.
Bigger concern is the reduced cargo capacity from China these days.
Surely educating and empowering the general population to take their own measures to prevent the spread is the best thing we can do in this situation.
If this is a matter of supply shortage. Why the heck have the people in charge not covered this?