Comment by newscracker | Hacker News Reader

Comment by newscracker | Hacker News Reader

I have a pessimistic view on Apple and Macs based on how this product line has been neglected for years (and continues to be neglected: one case in point is the iMac Pro which is three years old with no updates). It seems like the focus is on "iOSifying" the entire ecosystem (overall, Apple hasn't done much, or what was expected/possible, on the Mac over the past several years anyway).

Due to that pessimism, I'd expect the first ARM based Macs that are released publicly to run inferior Apple software (this is already evident with the Apple apps in the last few years). Many things will be further crippled and lobotomized with even more sandboxing restrictions, and likely no longer resemble what a "Mac app" has meant for a very long time. There have been signs of the "non-nativeness" with the Catalyst apps. Perhaps the Finder would be thrown out in favor of a Files app ported from iOS/iPadOS. What about browser rendering engines? Would third party ones be disallowed, like they are on iOS/iPadOS/tvOS? Safari on Mac has already removed support for WebExtensions last year, leaving users who have more than casual browsing requirements to switch to Firefox (or Brave or Chrome or other browsers). With battery life, thinness and lightweight laptops considered very important by Apple, there could be many things getting axed on the new ARM Macs. Perhaps, the very first ARM based Mac would actually be a new iPad with an integrated keyboard and trackpad.

The article talks about splitting the Mac line, which certainly seems to be a practical possibility. Would we then have macOS that runs on the ARM MacBook, Mac mini and iMac lines and another macOS Pro that would continue to run on the x64 Mac Pro for a much longer time? The stage is already being set to encourage developers to build iOS/iPadOS apps and have them sold as a single bundle on Mac. It's just a matter of pushing them further with the "promise" of a single build running on all platforms (thanks, Catalyst).

Just a crazy thought on emulation of x64 apps: would Apple embrace a "streaming app" emulation, similar to game streaming services where any necessary heavy lifting is done on the server side, with the local ARM processors just handling the minimal (pre-computed) rendering and I/O?

> Many things will be further crippled and lobotomized with even more sandboxing restrictions

Agree on the first half, strong disagree on the second. We need way more sandboxing restrictions on all operating systems. I have yet to see someone run into sandboxing problems on MacOS (in production) that wasn't doing some evil shit that should be difficult.

As a developer it's a bit annoying. As a user it's why the OS experience sucks less than windows and linux for user applications. The .app and permissions design is fantastic - the experience of developing it not so much, but it could be improved.

I really don't want your app spawning off god knows how many processes doing god knows what with unfettered access to my filesystem and network.

Couldn’t agree more!

> I really don't want your app spawning off god knows how many processes doing god knows what with unfettered access to my filesystem and network.

Look no further than apps like Zoom if you think this isn’t rampant. There are lots more examples of course!

(GP here) I agree, and would like to have more restrictions on what data apps can have access to. The problem I see is how to make it effective while also keeping it easy to use. I don't see a point in an app asking a user (through the system) for access to the Documents folder or Desktop folder and the user granting it. I'd prefer something more granular...something that fits the "sandbox" model with precise and granular access. I realize this may be complex, but there's hardly any point arguing about restrictions if giving access means opening up a really big chunk of data (folder) up for an app.

> I have yet to see someone run into sandboxing problems on MacOS (in production) that wasn't doing some evil shit that should be difficult.

What do you mean here? Photoshop, Lightroom Classic, Illustrator, Visual Studio Code, Adobe Premiere, Logic Studio, Final Cut, Unity, Steam, Chrome, Terminal, iTerm2, Blender, and Cinema 4D are some examples of applications that are not sandboxed. Are those apps all doing evil stuff?

> Macs based on how this product line has been neglected for years (and continues to be neglected

This honestly seems like something out of a script handed to everyone out to rag on Apple, at this point. Kind of like "PCs get viruses all the time!", something that may have been true at one point but no longer applicable, but still used as the rallying call by out-of-touch pitchforkers.

The 16" MacBook Pro (which is fucking amazing and addresses almost all concerns). The Mac Pro. The Pro Display XDR. All of their product lines are going strong, all having received substantial updates, but no, let's pick that one straw.

Most of that comment ("perhaps the Finder would be thrown out in favor of a Files app ported from iOS") reads like rambling scaremongering.

My wish for Apple is for them to spend at least one release cycle fixing their backlog of bugs and focus on polishing their existing features instead of cramming in new ones. Their hardware is fine, but post WWDC 2019 has been a very annoying time to be an Apple user, software-wise.

I can't help it if you choose to see this as a script handed to people. You can look at the history of releases of Mac hardware over the last six years and see for yourself how much neglect has been there. The 16" MacBook Pro does zilch for all the other MacBook* lines with the terrible keyboard that Apple still continues to sell at the same old prices. You'd have a better argument if/when Apple publicly acknowledges the keyboard issues and does a recall/replacement of the devices with the newly designed keyboards for all the people suffering with it even after multiple keyboard replacements. The 16" MacBook Pro does not address the concerns of the owners of the previous MacBook* machines. The presence of the terrible butterfly keyboard in hardware that's being currently sold shows how much Apple cares or is willing to do for customers.

The Mac Pro is a niche product meant for a select (few/several) thousands of people. It's not really something that will make a meaningful impact for most people who have used a Mac and are looking to buy a new Mac.

As for the Finder and Files part, we'll get to know if it's scaremongering or not. Those who have seen and experienced the Catalyst apps from Apple on the Mac know what the future may look like. It is up to Apple to prove them wrong with a much better UX that doesn't throw out what a Mac has meant to users and user experience for the last couple of decades (speaking only from the time of OS X).

>I have a pessimistic view on Apple and Macs based on how this product line has been neglected for years

Which is unfortunately true. They still have this idea that every update needs to be "meaningful". That would have been true if the Mac were still targeting consumers. But most consumers have moved on to Tablet and Phones. The Mac market is only left with "Prosumers" and Professionals.

It took them 6 years for a Mac Pro replacement and 3 years to admit their Keyboard mistake. And the new magic keyboard may be more reliable, but honestly its shallow typing feels still sucks.

The rate of AirPod, Apple Watch, Services's growth would mean Apple no longer give a damn about the Mac.

While it was all very bitter, they will continue to milk the market, after all there are over 20M iOS developers, that is nearly 20% of Active Mac users. I am not sure if that number is iOS developer account or individual numbers, but it is clear if you want the 1.2B iOS Devices Market you will have to develop on the Mac. And you will have to continue to pay the premium for it.

Apple does not make Macs for developers, they only care about "creative professionals" - which technically should include developers, but their definition only includes people who produce/edit video and pictures.

When was the last time they had a video of developers talking about how great MacOS was at WWDC or one of those media events? It's almost always some celebrity with a british accent or something.

Do note that every Apple engineer works on a Mac.

> one case in point is the iMac Pro which is three years old with no updates

I think they updated the GPU at some point. I'm not sure they have great options for upgrading the CPU; the Mac Pro uses broadly the same ones!

> Perhaps the Finder would be thrown out in favor of a Files app ported from iOS/iPadOS.

... wait, why? What does that have to do with ARM?

>> Perhaps the Finder would be thrown out in favor of a Files app ported from iOS/iPadOS.

> ... wait, why? What does that have to do with ARM?

Catalyst is already bringing (or aiming to bring) iOS/iPadOS apps to macOS. Apple's own apps over the last two years have used it (take News as one example). Apple also demonstrates a tendency to throw things out and rewrite them without those being good enough replacements (we've seen that time and again, with for example, iPhoto replaced by Photos, iTunes replaced by a few other apps, etc.)

The iMac Pro was released in December 2017. No real comment on the rest of your thesis, just wanted to correct that little bit.

Thanks for pointing that out. I can't edit and correct my comment now. My intent was to point out the long gaps between hardware updates (depending on which line one follows).

What I see happening is the MacBook Air using ARM processors. At least that's where I see things going.

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