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Comment by auiya | Hacker News Reader

A big problem is trucks and SUVs in general are being elevated with higher and higher ride heights, without pointing headlights down at an angle to compensate for the increased ride height. If you're driving a normal car, and not one of these bloated moon rovers or nuisance-sized farm vehicles, you're getting their headlights pointed straight at your face.

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I was under the impression that we had DOT bumper regulations that the bottom of the bumper couldn't exceed 24 inches. I was brought to this attention when a school bus decided to backup and went over my entire hood causing no damage. It's bumper was roughly at eye level for me!

In brazil the government requires tall vehicles to have two bumpers, the normal OEM one, and an extra one intended to stop smaller vehicles crashing into the back of the tall one.

This was because eye-level bumpers tend to decapitate people during pile-ups... since they are, after all, eye level...

It would be nice if the US adopted a law like that... I guess that requires too much governmental competence.

For commercial trucks, there is a law - search “Mansfield bar” or (possibly NSFW image) https://sparebumper.com/the-mansfield-bar-jayne-mansfield-an...

It seems crazy that it doesn't apply to civilian vehicles too

It does but it only gets enforced for new vehicles. See the rear bumper mods that were required for the Mercedes G-Wagen 4x4 Squared. Note that federal regs prevented the activation of the LED aux lights for these as well.

https://youtu.be/kgcAA4HUxuE?t=229 https://youtu.be/kgcAA4HUxuE?t=388

The problem is that most of the inappropriately-tall consumer vehicles get that way after the fact. I.e., people modify them. If this is only getting enforced at the manufacturer level, instead of the vehicle-inspection level, it's not going to accomplish much in that category.

Passenger vehicles don't need a Mansfield bar, because their primary crash structure has to be between 16 and 20 inches from the ground.

We have those here too. They aren't very effective. https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/images/photos/accident/graphi...

The standard could be improved, and they don't prevent everything, but in general they are effective.

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/iihs-recognizes-semitrailer...

Note that this does not address the fact that high bumpers are death for pedestrians. This addresses the issue of collisions with cars, but tall vehicles in general are really bad for pedestrians.

> high bumpers are death for pedestrians

The typical counter-argument to that involves some sort of abuse of the notion of freedom.

(Not endorsing, of course, just mentioning it.)

"People are stupid" is not a valid argument to move towards a solution. "Developing and establishing Standards, training appropriate authorities and giving them the right tools/equipment to measure/identify violators, legislate appropriate fines" is. Hand anyone who does this a $1000 fine, and see how fast the whole country falls in line.

There is the adage about freedom ending at the point my fist meets your face. In this case, I guess it's more about where my face meets your windshield.

A tall profile is pretty much inevitable for vehicles that carry cargo. Even places with strict pedestrian safety standards haven't solved that.

The problem is that we have way more tall profile vehicles out there than we do cargo being carried. It's not really a necessity, lots of people are just buying these things because they like the aesthetic moreso than having any practical need for them.

Plus I'm not even sure the general statement is really that true. The El Camino was a regular car profile. If you're just buying a pick up to haul furniture around rather than, say, bales of hay you don't need it to be that tall.

I was referring to commercial trucks, in line with the above commenters mention of Brazillian truck underride guards, which also are required in the US. Commercial trucks all around the world have a high profile.

The only thing in the US that is different is that passenger vehicles don't have as strict of pedestrian standards as the EU.

I'm just saying: a semi and a lorry have the same pedestrian-unfriendly profile.

> A tall profile is pretty much inevitable for vehicles that carry cargo.

But a tall profile does not mean that headlights need to be mounted higher above the road surface. This is a simple problem in geometry.

> inevitable for vehicles that carry cargo

But not for a vehicle that carries one person

In the US trucks are required to have 'Mansfield Bars' after Jame Mansfield who died in an accident with a trailer truck.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/28155/how-jayne-mansfiel...

There are definitely regulations for the range of heights headlights must be placed within. It's a fairly large range though.

Lights can become higher at the same bumper height when grilles become taller, as is happening with a lot of pickups and SUVs.

I'm not really sure how to fix this outside of just prohibiting high ride heights altogether (probably a non-starter). it's an inherent geometric problem.

suppose on a normal height vehicle, the lowbeams are aimed so the center of the beam hits position x on the pavement ahead of the vehicle. after lifting it, you readjust them so they're still centered at x. at any position between x and the emitting vehicle, the center of the beam is still higher than it was before. if you overcompensate so the center hits the ground before x, you are illuminating less of the ground ahead which is less safe in its own way.

don't get me wrong, I am very sympathetic to this issue. I drive a pretty low car and I get blinded any time there's a pickup behind me at night.

Lower headlights???

okay, that's a pretty obvious solution that I missed. I guess it might not be acceptable for a "work" or "offroad" vehicle to have delicate components placed so low, but it would certainly be okay for most of what these vehicles actually get used for.

While it's more expensive, headlights can also reorient themselves dynamically. You tend to see it on mid-tier vehicles and up, but it's a really great feature. So there is a technical solution to this problem, although I'd rather have a simpler approach that's also cheaper that works for most people (as much as I love my headlights, I realize it's one more thing that can break).

yeah I read an article on ars a while ago about this. very cool. I sort of worry how those systems will age though. perhaps in 2035, audis from 2020 will be performing light shows wherever they go.

I don't think you need to physically move the headlights down in most cases; just point them downward a bit.

An offroad vehicle can have lights mounted anywhere they like, but when on-road, it should have the mounted where they won't blind other drivers, even if it means putting them on a movable mount.

The solution to the problem you are describing is to stop tailgating.

I always try to maintain a safe following distance, but the folks behind me in their lifted trucks are not always so courteous :/

UNECE regulations require further angling the headlamp vertical aim downward based on the vehicle height. This page[1] has some common values:

[1] http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/aim/aim.html

>> just prohibiting high ride heights altogether (probably a non-starter)

Why not? Because some people will get very upset? Fuck 'em. They're literally killing people.

I agree it's generally unreasonable for people to lift their pickup trucks. it decreases the stability of the vehicle, and raising the chassis itself doesn't necessarily increase the clearance that much.

that said, this is one of those situations where most people are slightly annoyed, and a small group really wants to lift their truck. people doing specific kinds of work or living in rural and/or snowy areas may even have a legitimate reason for doing it. politically, it's hard to change things in this kind of situation.

Even when they're illegal, how often does something like that get enforced?

Same way taillights and such are, if a cop notices it you get a ticket or your vehicle impounded depending on the severity.

Assuming they want to bother with the paperwork. Maybe that happens in small towns. In NYC as a pedestrian I literally personally see dozens of vehicle infractions daily, and even used to report them. They never get ticketed, and I gave up after the hundredth complaint was closed without a cop even bothering to look to see if the violation was happening.

> A big problem is trucks and SUVs in general are being elevated with higher and higher ride heights

Honestly, this problem has been getting better in recent years due to two factors:

1. Newer vehicles, particularly SUVS, are increasingly not of a body-on-frame design that is trivial to lift. It is rare to see aftermarket-lifted unibody SUVs on the road in the US.

2. Automakers have started cooperating in increasing the crash compatibility of their vehicles. For example: the Enhancing Vehicle-to-Vehicle Crash Compatibility Agreement of 2003.

One of my friends laughs about blinding everyone in cars with his truck.

I hope you vitriolically react with "you're a f@#$^!n dick, man" or some other kind of pressure to get him to get the message: "endangering others is bad and you're losing respect/status by doing so."

My truck driver friends improved fairly quickly after I sat shotgun a couple times

What a weird reaction. How could you correct something like that? Better parenting?

I'm thinking of flashing my high beams whenever I pass drivers with lights too bright. Maybe they're just not aware. I flash my highs at drivers with their headlights off at night because it's dangerous. No reason to not do the same when it's dangerous on the other end of the spectrum.

I already do flash mine at drivers who leave theirs on.

I wish I could do that but they're always behind me when I notice this, blinding me through my mirrors.

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