3M Response to Defense Production Act Order
news.3m.com
news.3m.com
The maximum penalty provided by the Defense Production Act is a $10,000 fine, or one year in prison, or both.
The government may also seek an injunction from a court of appropriate jurisdiction to prohibit the continuance of any violation of, or to enforce compliance with, the Defense Production Act, this part, or an official action.
Submitters who break the site guidelines by editorializing that badly eventually lose their submission rights on HN. So there's that.
This is a very good point. We really don't want China cutting us off right now.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/ne...
Some claim the masks are deliberately faulty
"Alabama county received 5,000 rotted masks from national stockpile": https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/491015-alabama-coun...
It's actually kind of a terrible point, because they're completely different countries. The ones who are trying to buy masks from the US aren't the ones selling them to the US.
But export restrictions are also kind of silly. Why not just outbid the other guy for the masks? Then the higher price will bring more producers into the market faster, which is really the most important thing anyway.
Not always true.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/31/pence-task-force-co...
> Last week, a Trump administration official working to secure much-needed protective gear for doctors and nurses in the United States had a startling encounter with counterparts in Thailand.
> The official asked the Thais for help—only to be informed by the puzzled voices on the other side of the line that a U.S. shipment of the same supplies, the second of two so far, was already on its way to Bangkok.
...and then they stopped sending them over there.
If you already need more than you have, selling what you have is typically only done by mistake. Its the places that can make more than they need that are selling them.
Alternatively we can throw in the towel on the whole "nation of laws, not men" thing, and just let companies do what they want, but I'd rather not live in that cyberpunk dystopia waiting to happen.
Though the irony of the moment does strike me as humorous. The overall credibility of the Federal apparatus is at such an all time low, we've got multi-nationals doing foreign policymaking for them.
I don't know whether to laugh or weep.
They make the machines that make the masks.
Also ventilators ( eg. Philips and many other European countries)
And a big chance that the vaccine is coming from Europe as well
Where does this press release state that?
It says the literal opposite:
"We look forward to working with FEMA to implement yesterday’s order."
Anyway there is a lot more information available as to what’s going on with Canadian orders and 3M Canada. Put it this way Canada has ordered 65M and 3M Canada and Canada both refuse to say how many 3M is providing in that order.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/...
https://globalnews.ca/news/6769162/canada-medical-supplies-c...
Here the EU has banned the export of masks unless the country's government approves (which is what Trump is doing) https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-eu-limit-exports...
Also not mentioned Russia and Taiwan also banned all export of masks.
Eg. From Germany : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-f...
> We’re not categorically against exports but want to understand what happens, because previously it was so that masks went not where they were most needed but where most was paid.
They are literally handling the problems the US/Trump is causing right now.
I expect more on HN
They will comply at least that’s what their letter further down says
I presume it's much simpler to avoid being accused of gouging and selling to countries which pay prices according to supply and demand.
• Straps – Thermoplastic Elastomer
• Nose Clip – Aluminum
• Nose foam - Polyurethane
• Filter – Polypropylene
• Shell – Polyester
• Coverweb - Polyester
Here's another document from Honeywell stating the main material is "flexible non-woven polypropylene fabric" https://www.honeywell.com/en-us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-ma...
Here's the link to Wikipedia and I quote "The N95 mask requires a fine mesh of synthetic polymer fibers, also known as nonwoven polypropylene fabric,[5] which is produced through a highly specialized process called melt blowing that forms the inner filtration layer that filters out hazardous particles.[6]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_mask
And you are an expert? Basic Google just backed me up.
I don't know the answer. The only thing I do know is that a medical/surgical N95 mask is different from a standard N95 mask.
This would be reason enough to undermine your claim, according to me.
But as stated, I'm not an expert. A friend+client of mine in construction also has N95 masks and those are not valid for use in the hospital, he said.
Also basic Google backed me up :)
Ps. Thanks for trying to back up your claim with valid sources ;)!
I started having trouble sourcing these in late January.
Okay, let me provide you another source or two.
Here's the 3M 1860/1860S N95 Surgical Respirator. FDA approved for hospital use in the US (also the standard one used). Approved by Health Canada in Canada. Approved by TGA in Australia. This is the light blue one you see on the news.
* Straps: Braided Polyisoprene
* Staples: Steel
* Nose Clip: Aluminium
* Nose Foam: Polyurethane Foam
* Filter: Polypropylene/Polyester
* Shell: Polypropylene
* Coverweb: Polypropylene
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1538979O/3m-disposable-r...Here's the 3M 1804/1804S N95 Surgical Respirator (https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1547881O/3m-anz-psd-heal...). Also approved by FDA for hospital use. Same with Health Canada and Australian TGA. This is the white duckbill type you see on the news.
* Straps: Polyisoprene
* Staples: Steel
* Nose Clip: Aluminium
* Filter: Polypropylene
* Coverweb: PolypropyleneThe wording seems to be that is literally used in surgical masks:
https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.com/business/nanaimos-h...
> K10S pulp is made from western red cedar that produces a soft fibre that makes it suitable for the final products made from it.
“It’s been tweaked over the years to come up with the right formula that allows it to go into the medical supplies,” Sampson said.
Your source indeed says: these materials are used.
But it never says they are listing all the materials that are used.
It could be that they mention it because those materials can touch the skin. I don't see anything that mentions the filtering technique/materials inside of those masks.
I also don't see how the materials are tweaked. So I don't think it's as easy to read the brochure and believe that they mention everything on it.
I guess the Polypropylene fibrids in the filter contains the K10S ( = the pulp )
An indication to support this can be found here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8172035.html
( Search for K10S in the text and read the entire surrounding text)
As stated before, I'm not an expert.
So far I've shown that K10S is not used in N95 respirators which is the original statement.
I've shown evidence in good faith and you have not. None of your links makes reference to N95 Respirators.
Please provide a direct reference that K10S pulp is used in N95 Respirators.
What you said now is not what you said before. You literally claimed it was just the bag, lol:
> I'm no expert, but I am sure the only pulp used in a N95 respirator is the box they put the 10 or 20 masks in. They can easily replace that with a bag.
And I repeat:
> “It’s been tweaked over the years to come up with the right formula that allows it to go into the medical supplies,” Sampson said
Not every company is going to put their "secret sauce" online.
Just send an email to 3M to ask the question instead of trying to guess it.
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/novec-us/support/contact-us/
Google can't solve everything. As an alternative, you could ask it on StackExchange.
Then Google can pick it up for you and you can have your nice link :p
And also, you are looking for "surgical masks N95 K10S" in Google. I googled the root question and that is: where is K10S used in Polypropylene , but you don't seem to grasp/accept it.
I already explained why it would be better to look that up...
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9408424.html
In discussing a way to take water vapour from exhaled breath away from the filter surface. If this is the case while the polyurethane is the primary material the pulp fibre is applied to it as a layer which may not appear in a spec sheet.
"In some embodiments, a face seal may consist only of a water-vapor-breathable layer and a wicking layer (that is located on the rearward side of at least a portion of the water-vapor-breathable layer), with no other layers being present. In other embodiments, other layers may be present in the face seal.
There are several general approaches to providing such a wicking layer, which approaches will be described herein in a non-limiting manner. In one approach, a fibrous wicking layer (e.g., a non-woven web, a woven or knitted fabric, and so on) can be comprised (e.g., generally, substantially, or completely) of fibers with “moderate” hydrophilicity. Materials that might be suitable for such fibers include e.g. certain nylons, polyesters, cellulose acetates, and so on. In another approach, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of relatively hydrophobic fibers (e.g., polyethylene, polypropylene, natural rubber, and so on), but with the web incorporating some portion of relatively hydrophilic fibers (e.g., cellulosic fibers, acrylic fibers comprising a significant amount of hydrophilic co-monomer, and so on). That is, any suitable blend of hydrophobic fibers and hydrophilic fibers can be used to arrive at the optimum balance of properties. In a variation of such approaches, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of relatively hydrophobic fibers but may further comprise hydrophilic particles of any suitable composition (e.g. hydrocolloids, WOOD PULP, starch particles, and so on). Conversely, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of relatively hydrophilic fibers but may further comprise hydrophobic particles of any suitable composition."
Filtering face-piece respirator having a face seal comprising a water-vapor-breathable layer Patent Assignee 3M INNOVATIVE PROPERTIES COMPANY (St. Paul, MN, US)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9408424.html
In discussing a way to take water vapour from exhaled breath away from the filter surface. If this is the case while the polyurethane is the primary material the pulp fibre is applied to it as a layer which may not appear in a spec sheet.
"In some embodiments, a face seal may consist only of a water-vapor-breathable layer and a wicking layer (that is located on the rearward side of at least a portion of the water-vapor-breathable layer), with no other layers being present. In other embodiments, other layers may be present in the face seal.
There are several general approaches to providing such a wicking layer, which approaches will be described herein in a non-limiting manner. In one approach, a fibrous wicking layer (e.g., a non-woven web, a woven or knitted fabric, and so on) can be comprised (e.g., generally, substantially, or completely) of fibers with “moderate” hydrophilicity. Materials that might be suitable for such fibers include e.g. certain nylons, polyesters, cellulose acetates, and so on. In another approach, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of relatively hydrophobic fibers (e.g., polyethylene, polypropylene, natural rubber, and so on), but with the web incorporating some portion of relatively hydrophilic fibers (e.g., cellulosic fibers, acrylic fibers comprising a significant amount of hydrophilic co-monomer, and so on). That is, any suitable blend of hydrophobic fibers and hydrophilic fibers can be used to arrive at the optimum balance of properties. In a variation of such approaches, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of relatively hydrophobic fibers but may further comprise hydrophilic particles of any suitable composition (e.g. hydrocolloids, WOOD PULP, starch particles, and so on). Conversely, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of relatively hydrophilic fibers but may further comprise hydrophobic particles of any suitable composition."
and further
Enhancement of barrier fabrics with breathable films and of face masks and filters with novel fluorochemical electret reinforcing treatment
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2005/0079379.html
“In the late 1970s this lead inventor, as an R&D scientist with Johnson & Johnson Surgikos Company led a successful program to replace the glass fiber filter media with melt blown (MB) polypropylene (PP). To achieve 95% In vitro BFE, it was necessary to electrostatically charge the MB filter media (Wadsworth, Larry C. and Solomon P. Hersh, Raleigh, N.C., “Method of Making Fibrous Electrets,” U.S. Pat. No. 4,375,718, assigned to Surgikos, Inc., issued Mar. 8, 1983). Latex-bonded dry-laid and wet-laid nonwovens with fiber contents viscose rayon, PULP or blends of cellulosic and synthetic fibers were utilized for the outer and inner facings, with the filter media in the center. By the late 1980s, virtually all surgical FMs consisted of an electrostatically charged MB PP filter media core (Wadsworth, Larry C. and Solomon P. Hersh, Raleigh, N.C., “Method of Making Fibrous Electrets,” U.S. Pat. No. 4,375,718, assigned to Surgikos, Inc., issued Mar. 8, 1983; Kubik, Donald A. and Charles I. Davis, “Melt-Blown Fibrous Electrets,” U.S. Pat. No. 4,215,682, assigned to Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing Company, issued Aug. 5, 1980; Klasse, P. T. A. and Jan van Tumhout, “Method for Manufacturing an Electret Filter Media,” U.S. Pat. No. 4,588,537, issued May 13, 1986) with pigmented SB PP on the outside and un-pigmented (white) SB PP on the body side. In 1995 and 1997, Wadsworth and Tsai obtained patents, for much improved cold electrostatic charging (Tantret™) technology (Tsai, P. P. and L. C. Wadsworth, “Method and Apparatus for the Electrostatic Charging of a Web or Film,” U.S. Pat. No. 5,401,446, assigned to The University of Tennessee Research Corporation (UTRC), issued Mar. 28, 1995; Wadsworth, L. C. and P. P. Tsai, “Method and Apparatus for the Electrostatic Charging of a Web or Film,” U.S. Pat. No. 5,686,050, assigned to UTRC, issued Nov. 11, 1997) assigned to The University of Tennessee Research Foundation (UTRF), which enabled the charged MB PP filter media in FMs and respirators to filter greater than 95% of particles with a diameter of 0.1 μm, which has been licensed to more than 20 companies world-wide. Such small particles are produced in laser surgery and concerns about the transmission of Aids and Hepatitis during surgery prompted the demand for high filtration efficiency to particles which could contain viruses.
Construction of Face Masks and Respirators
Today, face masks (FMs) are typically composed of three layers, as illustrated in FIG. 2, with an outer layer (OL) of 12-25 g/m2 spunbond (SB) PP, a center of 15-30 g/m2 of electrostatically charged MB PP, and a body-side (BS) layer of 12-25 g/m2 SB PP. Generally, face masks (e.g. surgical face masks and dust masks) are not bonded together and are only bonded on the edges of the face mask (FM) being fabricated by either sewing (FIG. 3, FIG. 3a, FIG. 3b, and FIG. 6), or preferably by ultrasonic bonding. Nevertheless, the FM laminates may be thermally or ultrasonically bonded (FIG. 4 and FIG. 11) together by a “spot welding” technique which does not fuse enough of the laminate together to excessively increase the pressure drop across the filter and make it difficult for one to breathe easily through the fabric, or to cause pin holes to form in the laminate and thereby increase the risk of harmful particles penetrating through the FM. However, FM laminate layers may be thermally fused together to produce a pre-formed cup-shaped mask or respirator, which may be held firmly, yet comfortably against the mouth to ensure that no or minimal leakage occurs where the edges of the cup-shaped mask contacts the human face. In fact a non-air-leaking rubbery or spongy layer may be attached around the edges of the cup mask to assure both a comfortable fit and non-leakage. An example with this innovation is the Willson 5000 Series respirator (Dalloz Safety Ltd., Hampshire RG27 9HX, United Kingdom, Willson 5000 Series Brochure). Respirators may also be fitted with exhalation valves which open when exhaling but which close for a tight seal when inhaling (FIG. 4b). European standards for respirators, EN 149:2001/Standard AS/NZS 1716:1994 require that the laminate construction must be able to be welded ultrasonically, as illustrated in FIG. 1, FIG. 2 and in the FIG. 11 process schematic, and that the thickness of the filter media must be as small as possible in order to obtain good welding of the mask with the media (FFP1 Media [Standard EN 149: 2001/Standard AS/NZS 1716: 1994], summary document and specifications by Bacou-Dalloz France; FFP2 Media [EN 149: 2001 Standard/AS/NZS 1716: 1994 Standard], summary document and specifications by Bacou-Dalloz France; FFP3 Media [EN 149: 2001 Standard], summary document and specifications by Bacou-Dalloz France). Typically to produce a cup mask with the required filtration efficiency (FE) and not too much pressure drop (ΔP), coarser and lower bulk density components, including MB media with larger fiber diameters and pores, may be used for spot thermal bonding or spot ultrasonic bonding of three-dimensionally shaped mask to meet the required end-use specifications in terms of FE, Δp and proper fitting to the face. Examples of cup-type face masks and respirators are readily found on the internet (NIOSH/NPPTL/Concept for SBRN Full Facepiece APR Standard, Sep. 16, 2002, Website: httD://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/npptlrespfact.html; Respirators/NIOSH Topic Page, Website: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/respirators/;"
https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.com/business/nanaimos-h...
• Straps – Thermoplastic Elastomer
• Nose Clip – Aluminum
• Nose foam - Polyurethane
• Filter – Polypropylene
• Shell – Polyester
• Coverweb - Polyester
Here's the datasheet for the 3M 1860 N95 Surgical Respirator (for hospital and medical use): https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1538979O/3m-disposable-r...
* Straps: Braided Polyisoprene
* Staples: Steel
* Nose Clip: Aluminium
* Nose Foam: Polyurethane Foam
* Filter: Polypropylene/Polyester
* Shell: Polypropylene
* Coverweb: Polypropylene
Here's another document from Honeywell stating the main material is "flexible non-woven polypropylene fabric" https://www.honeywell.com/en-us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-ma...
Here's the link to Wikipedia and I quote "The N95 mask requires a fine mesh of synthetic polymer fibers, also known as nonwoven polypropylene fabric,[5] which is produced through a highly specialized process called melt blowing that forms the inner filtration layer that filters out hazardous particles.[6]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_mask
This should be a wake up call to Canada to stop being so dependent on exporting commodities. It's been this way for my entire life and has been a constant complaint in Canadian economic circles but for some reason Canada doesn't seem to want to diversify. Maybe this will change that attitude.
Pulp production is not a nameless commodity, it needs to be up to a certain spec for surgical masks, for example. Canada is the supplier for a great many US companies. Sure, the US could try to produce that speficic spec, but it would not be easy and would take precious weeks that the US cannot spare. If it could, production would just increase for respirators, but this has to be done instead because it takes too much time. And in that time, Canada will likely be able to set up production for the masks, actually. If I remember correctly 3M Canada does make filter media, so the expertise is there. It isn't rocket science either, it just takes time.
In a full scale economic war between the US and Canda, at least all Canadians will still have water and electricity.
And what would "nationalizing" them look like, anyway? You realize that they're a multinational corporation, right? You could nationalize the US part, but you'd lose the rest of them. Even solely for purposes of the respirators, the result might not be better than what they're giving you now.
The best I can do is wish her the best. I'm sorry.
In the end though, Canada and every other country in the world should realize that the United States doesn't have friends, it has interests.
Do you not feel this is serious enough of a situation that it requires all the masks this American company makes to be sent to these hot spots? Should the US not try to save its own citizens lives above trying to be friends with Canada or South America?
Why doesn't Canada manufacture it's own masks?