Ask HN: Has any progress been made on large format E-ink displays? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Has any progress been made on large format E-ink displays?

314 pointssemisight166 comments

Context upfront: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13771203

I'd really like to have a decent (let's say >13") display to hang on a wall in my room and display weather, my todo list, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be E-ink proper, but I like the idea of having something that doesn't emit its own light. More like an electronic whiteboard.

Alternatives include something like the Vestaboard, which is not cheap, and probably fairly noisy.

Are there products I'm missing here?

View on HN

If you're interesting in building your own you can get a 12" one from waveshare: https://www.waveshare.com/product/displays/e-paper/12.48inch...

This is the black/white one, they do a black/white/red one too. But beware, they take really long to refresh (the red color takes several refreshes to appear). And the one with red is on backorder till June.

It can be powered by a raspberry pi (or ESP32 or Arduino) and is (much) cheaper than the ereader options of the same size: Only about $170.

PS Beware: You can't simply start up a user interface like X-Windows on it. You have to write software to display on it. The display is addressed in 4 separate sections so it's not super easy.

I did some experiment with the bare version of this display, both with the b/w and the b/w/r displays. The black and white one can be partially updated (window mode) and is a bit faster. The four sections mentioned above don't have exactly the same size: two sections have slightly fewer pixels in width. I used a STM32 controller which came with the display; it had just enough memory to fit a whole image. It was interesting to write some 'generative' code for it...

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6-h1TSBG6x/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B3o6RirB5iU/

Neat. I was looking for one of these. Wanted to make a KindleBerry Pi to do some writing/coding in a destruction free environment.

I wanted this for some time, an eink coding experience for outdoor use and good battery life. Do you know of any active projects online where people have got this working?

The technology is there, but E Ink (the company) is steadfastly refusing to lower prices because they believe there's a market for this. Now go to Alibaba and find that you can get a flexible, full-color OLED sheet for the same price as a given size E Ink panel.

Go on eBay and buy an older NOOK device (they all ran Android) for $20, tape it to your wall, and point at your web page of choice.

A great example of patents strangling innovation. If anyone has more concrete details on the way this company is holding back this technology I’d love to read details. Thanks!

The irony is that they are probably limiting their profit too. With lower prices the number of applications would skyrocket and they would get much bigger income.

The only reason I can think of is that scaling the production would be difficult for some reason?

From skimming through their website, it looks like they target business applications with bigger displays (Health Care, Transportation, Industrial & Packaging, ...) which I would assume are high margin contracts.

So maybe another reason would be that offering lower prices for big displays would reduce profits from these business clients more than it would increase profits from the additional low-margin mass-market volumes.

If large screens with a decent refresh rate were readily available and competitively priced, I imagine they'd be a huge hit with devs - I know I'd love one.

The pertinent patents were filed in '96, so it's almost certainly not that?

Last I checked there were over a dozen patents from the 1990s to the 2010s that cover everything from manufacturing to software. IIRC the most important patents actually cover some algorithms on the display controller that won't be public domain until the mid to late 2020s.

Europe doesn't have software patents.

I think non-US space would be enough of a market?

IIRC it gets a bit messy once we start talking about hardware implementations of algorithms. I mean, is an electronics circuit that essentially implements an algorithm still a software patent?

Why does it need to be a hardware implementation?

... because we're talking about software patents?

What makes you think it’s to do with patents? Maybe there’s just insufficient demand.

There is insufficient demand for high priced e-ink screens. Which probably comes down to supply, which probably comes down to patents

I am responding to a parent comment that suggested there was more demand but the company was holding it back. If that is true the only way one company could hold it back is patents.

No. They could just choose not to sell at a lower price. In a frictionless market someone else would step in and sell the good at the lower price, but in reality if not enough people want it then that third party won’t bother.

I don't think the answer is that simple. Would the initial innovation even be worth pursuing if not the existence of patents? Hard to say. At the very lease we do know that in a decade there's no more strangleholds.

This is why I believe patent laws (and copyright laws, but that's another story) are completely broken. Innovation is being stilfled because the world is addicted to profit, and not just profit, but easy profit. Gone are the days when making a superior product was the only way to get ahead, no. Companies want exclusive monopolies over anything and everything they create. An engineer just has to draw squiggle on a whiteboard and that becomes the IP of the company they work for. The patent system needs a complete overhaul.

They would drop the price if there was a large enough volume play behind it. Do you think they don't want to make money?

Do you have an example of such OLED sheet that you can recommend?

Have you looked at https://remarkable.com/? It's a little smaller, 12" diagonal.

Dasung sells a 13.3" e-ink monitor: https://www.amazon.com/Dasung-Paperlike-13-3-E-Ink-Monitor/d...

Can anyone comment on the difficulty (for a hacker) of using Remarkable with Kindle books? I have a Kindle already, if that makes a difference in generating DRM-free files of content I already purchased reading rights to.

It is trivial to convert DRM'd Kindle e-books you own into epub or other formats. Check out Calibre and the Apprentice Alf plugin.

https://calibre-ebook.com/

https://apprenticealf.wordpress.com/

has something changed? it used to be easy but looks like there's a per-device encryption support in new kindles.

You just need an older version of the Kindle desktop app that doesn't support the newer (uncracked) DRM. Then you just download the books you've purchased in the app, load them into Calibre, and De-DRM them.

AFAIK drm version 3 still isn't cracked, but there's some epubs without drm, and most with drm is possible to get with older drm for backwards compatability reasons.

I'm not sure what the status of drm circumvention for fair/own use is in the US - I think there was a case that opened up for viewing/backing up dvds, but if not - this is still illegal, which partly defeats the purpose of buying through Amazon.

it's interesting but some kindle books I've purchased have a little blurb at the beginning of the book that says something like "the publisher has distributed this book without DRM"

I always wondered if the kindle file was actually unencrypted.

I think as long as there is no copyright infringement involved (i.e. as long as you don't redistribute it) it's ok. IANAL.

Possibly. I vaguely recall this... But I'm not sure if there's been other rulings, or if ebooks or media-as-a-service has been in the courts after this.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/07/court...

I have never been able to get EPUBs to reliably work on remarkable. My solution is to convert them to PDFs.

You can also install KOReader on remarkable as a reader. Works better IMHO. https://github.com/koreader/koreader

If you do it, do you lose the ability to annotate?

I use them all the time. Never had any issue.

I also use reMarkable as a (pretty good) EPUB reader, but it is really slow when opening the book for the first time or changing the rendering settings (font size, margins, etc.).

It can sometimes take a minute or two and sometimes it just hangs completely and you have to close the book and re-open it. I assume it's because it has to somehow render the whole book, to support the handwritten annotations and put them in correct places.

I love reading on my remarkable but using it with Kindle books has been a pain. You can break the Kindle DRM but it’s cumbersome.

Though my main pain point is that you lose the book position syncing you get with the Kindle hardware/apps.

The Boox Max 3 seems to be a better option for the OP. [0]. It has a 13.3" screen, runs Android, and also functions as a monitor for your computer. The refresh rate doesn't seem to be the best, but it looks like a pretty good solution given what is out there so far. I've been looking at it for a while, but I haven't bought one yet. I would love to hear opinions by people who have one. [0] - https://www.boox.com/max3-3/

I would buy the reMarkable in a heartbeat if it was indeed a 12" display. Alas, the screen is only 10.3".

Does 2 inches really make that much difference?

Depends on who you ask... ;)

Kidding aside, my primary use case is reading and annotating pdf textbooks and legal documents. I used a 10.5" iPad Pro for over a year for that and, while doable, not very pleasant for my eyes after a couple of hours of reading. Upgraded to the 12.9" iPad Pro this year and my eyes felt noticeably more relaxed even after 4-5 hours of reading and working on the iPad.

Ideally, reMarkable would make an XL version that closely resembles the aspect ratio and size of a 8.5x11 paper, but I'd settle for something slightly smaller with that aspect ratio.

Looks like I can get the Dasung for $1200 used...

It’s a pity because I’d love that thing to read the web on actually.

They might be out due to COVID-related supply issues, I remember seeing them in stock a few months ago. You might have better luck ordering from the company directly.

I've long wondered why electrophoretic displays (the generic term for E Ink, which is a proprietary name) continue to be exponentially more expensive at sizes larger than a Kindle while other technologies like OLED have become vastly more affordable in larger formats over a similar timeframe.

The best I can tell is that there just hasn't been an investment in scaling up fabrication anywhere near what the likes of LG (mostly LG, actually) has done with >40" OLED panels. Presumably the demand isn't there yet, and so larger-format electrophoretics remain the product of low-volume, high-cost manufacturing processes.

That's because OLED has 45 years of active development behind it's belt. EInk only has 24.

[0] The first OLED patent was filed in 1975 and the first practical OLED was created in 1987. Only in the past 5 years (2015-2020) has OLED been used widely enough to bring the price down.

[1] The first patent for an microencapsulated electrophoretic display was filed in 1996. The earliest practical EINK screen I could find was the Sony Librié in 2004.

But e-ink technology isn’t ready to go out of the gate - the refresh rate is still a significant issue that makes it virtually purposeless for much beyond reading. If it is at this point, it just didn’t happen quickly enough.

I'd like a very large e-ink display for artwork, signage, and metrics. It doesn't have to refresh more than once every several seconds.

Even for signage it has some spectacular failure modes. Where LCD would just not show anything, the e-ink will keep the last (and invalid) information confusing everyone in the process.

Some of the eink displays linked here have 12s refresh, and it does a super annoying flash black/white process while refreshing.

Then you are a niche case. In order to forward a new technology, the masses need to adapt it. Apple, for instance, had to upscale the manufacture of Retina displays by starting with a proven successful product - then moving it to the iPad, then moving it to MacBooks.

We had e-book readers for e-ink, but they stayed at a super slow refresh rate. There was no reason to create a tablet sized e-ink display until the ReMarkable removed the issue of the delay.

Now we will have clones of that, and after that we will see a push to larger displays.

Mass manufacturing is hugely about cost balance vs. demand.

I think digital whiteboards in offices would be a great market for this. Again, though, if you’re going to draw on it at all there needs to be zero latency.

>There was no reason to create a tablet sized e-ink display

Of course there was; large-format publications like newspapers, magazines and technical documents. All requiring large display area and not needing fast refresh. But yet, all ignored by the manufacturers and so LCD tablets became the default for those despite their drawbacks.

How about ClearInk? https://youtu.be/kE_byDwLjxk?t=34

Also, ye olde e-Ink has plans for Q3 2020: https://youtu.be/vOTid3I-4EI

A few years ago those Pixel Qi displays had quite acceptable refresh rates (the Notion Ink Adam had one of those displays):

https://youtu.be/193w4JLm5hE?t=286

Large format E-ink displays are currently used primarily in digital signage scenarios (outdoor advertising, passenger information systems,...) - examples are Soofa (http://www.soofa.co/) and Mercury Innovation (https://www.mercuryinnovation.com.au/digital-bus-stop).

The largest size currently available is 42" and it is used in outdoor and indoor scenarios. Indoor use is for education purposes as a digital whiteboard - see Quilla (https://www.engadget.com/2017-01-03-quirklogic-s-quilla-is-a...).

None of these are especially applicable for home use due to the price tag (just to be clear, the display itself is very expensive). What you could do is use Sonys larger format eInk tablet, use Remarkable EInk tablet or hack your own solution from an older Kobo reader.

We're offering solutions somewhere in the middle - traditionally we were focused on SME, where our devices are being used as universal digital signage (http://www.visionect.com) or tailored for room booking (http://getjoan.com), so a bit pricy for home use. But we just launched a 6" device called Joan Home (https://getjoan.com/shop/joan-home/) that syncs to your calendar and are looking to expand it with new functionality in the future. We're thing of integrations with home automation, pomodoro timer, IFTTT, etc...

Comments on the Joan Home are welcome - as we're actively thinking of developing this into a more feature rich product in next two months.

What a cool product for meeting rooms! But .. and maybe I'm just not the target audience, there's no way in any universe am I paying 250 bucks for a "do not disturb sign" in my house. That's just way too expensive.

Same here. My girlfriend just listens whether I'm talking to someone or not. If it's unclear, she taps on the door.

With kids I bet it's more difficult, but I don't think this technological solution can solve a human/social problem.

Yup. We did get a lot of that with our meeting room solution. We'll be expanding the feature set over the near future, to entice home users to go for something like this even with a price tag of 250.

I can't even imagine what you'd add to make it useful for 250 dollars. Like, look.. If I don't want to be disturbed, I close my door. If I am OK with being disturbed, it is open. That's not going to cost me 250 bucks. If the product were in the 100 bucks range, maybe I'd bite, but it is far from that. This is trying to be pitched to me as a home solution, but with the price tag of what I'd consider for a company instead.

I don’t see what your problem is with the device - it’s an e ink calendar for 250 euros thats cordless, I like it. Even tho it is expensive for me.

“ Comments on the Joan Home are welcome - as we're actively thinking of developing this into a more feature rich product in next two months.”

Just giving my feedback. Like I originally said, it’s a cool product, but it’s got a price tag that makes it not a “Home” product like you just said.

This is "special offer" for home usage (in Europe for 249€ excluding VAT). Also "Comes with a FREE 30-day Joan Home plan trial" that I can't find anywhere on they page how much it cost or what is providing. Does it even work without this plan?

Jean-6 that's the same device plus front light cost 549€ (without VAT) and monthly premium plans.

https://getjoan.com/shop/joan-6-1/

https://getjoan.com/pricing-plans/

I‘d love to see such a device based on Android with 5 years update guarantee. Users could easily use it for any of your envisioned use cases and you could focus on your hardware competency

Android will never work in a cordless scenario. We have device with 3 months autonomy and the next gen device currently nearing production drastically increases that as well. We've evaluated everything embedded, especially Android (love the ecosystem), but there is literary no tech that would give you full operation and full wifi connectivity, months of autonomy off a standard phone battery and Android. We had to develop a lot of proprietary stuff...

32" e-ink panels exist but are still too expensive to be practical for home use: https://shopkits.eink.com/product/31-2˝-monochrome-epaper-di...

The only commercial product I know of that uses it is from Visionect but it's a meant for digital signage rather than as a computer display: https://www.visionect.com/product/place-and-play-32/. It's less expensive than their earlier system but still around $2500.

I thought that might be an awesome splurge someday, then I saw the refresh rate of 750ms. Nearly an entire second to see a screen repaint every time I move a cursor.

For a smaller size, apparently the displays made by Dasung are pretty nice.

Not just 32”, Eink sell a 42” monochrome panel[1] and a 32” colour panel[2] too.

[1] https://shopkits.eink.com/product/42%cb%9d-monochrome-epaper...

[2] https://shopkits.eink.com/product/31-2%cb%9d-color-epaper-di...

This isn't perfectly within your search criteria, but you may still find it interesting. Just today I researched the available solutions for driving a ED097OC1 (compatible) display, which was built into the Kindle DX, has a diagonale of 9,7" and can be obtained for about 30€ [0].

There are some projects dedicated to driving the screen with an ESP32, which already has WiFi built in, has good low power modes and is pretty cheap as well [1] [2].

There's also a project driving e-ink displays with an stm32 [3] and one to do it with an FPGA [4].

Beyond 13" things get really expensive and hard to find - best I can do is 12,48" for 150€ [5].

[0]: https://aliexpress.com/item/32983492389.html

[1]: https://github.com/dqydj/PaperBack_EPaper_Display

[2]: https://hackaday.io/project/168193-976-e-paper-controller-ki...

[3]: https://hackaday.io/project/11537-nekocal-an-e-ink-calendar

[4]: https://github.com/vd-rd/project_rorschach

[5]: https://aliexpress.com/i/32929629021.html

So that's the current state of available stuff - The ESP32 stuff is quite interesting because it's all you need for an IoT module and in the right version it even has enough RAM for full screen updates.

I don't know specifics about the voltage conversion yet (these screens need about -20V - 20V), but I reckon that if you're really frugal you could make a battery powered wall display for under 60€ with this stuff - and that's part 1 of what I'm thinking of doing.

Part 2 would be to stick in a Pine64 SOPINE System On a Module [6], put on a capacitive touch layer [7] and run a mainline Linux with KOReader and maybe even a Wayland compositor to be able to run any Linux app (the high contrast GTK theme seems perfect for this application).

All hopefully for under 200€, which is a lot less expensive than other e-readers if that size and a whole lot cooler.

Any tips?

[6]: https://store.pine64.org/?product=sopine-a64

[7]: https://aliexpress.com/item/32984143128.html

[8]: https://github.com/koreader/koreader

I suspect you would be interested in this:

https://hackaday.com/2016/01/19/a-digital-canvas-thats-hard-...

It matches the LCD lighting to the ambient light, so that it doesn’t have that “glowing screen” look, but instead looks like a flat picture.

Something else irrelevant to your question, but trés cool: https://hackaday.com/2019/08/17/great-artificial-daylight-vi...

In Shanghai they are used as timetables at bus stops. Almost A2 size in some stops and smaller ones, about A4 (vertical) at others... The small ones had a clock which updated every minute (windowed mode) while the passenger data updated in longer intervals, probably hourly.

Thank you for the info. I just searched and found this post https://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2018/11/15/e-ink-fo...

Yes. That's the bigger one!

It's strange that the list of buses is sorted by bus number and not by time…

Also: finally a display where advertisement is probably not so attractive.

> It's strange that the list of buses is sorted by bus number and not by time…

You don't randomly hop on the first bus that arrives at your bus stop. You need the bus that brings you to your desired destination. The bus number is important to know you're on the right bus. Sorting by bus number makes it easier to scan for arrival time of the bus you actually need.

Also, every route can be displayed on the board, even if the next ten buses are all on a different route with better service. Better to have the next bus for every route than just the next expected buses

But there might be different busses which share the same route for a while: so you'd rather find find the first one.

There is a need gap for 'Affordable E-Ink large external displays'[1].

Dasung, Onyx have been market leaders in this category and they are expensive. There are E-ink tablets from several other manufacturers as mentioned in other comments, but they rarely are external displays.

Then there are reliability issues with cheap DIY E-Ink displays, they don't last long and especially when displaying low refresh rate data like Weather, todo list; there will be ghosting issues quite soon.

I'm not exactly sure on whether manufacturing large E-ink external displays is just an unit-economics problem which will get resolved with improvement in technology or there is some underlying Intellectual Property issues from the likes of Amazon,Dasung,Onyx etc.

[1]https://needgap.com/problems/43-affordable-e-ink-large-exter...

Not only are Onyx expensive; they're basically unusable. A rooted Kobo H2O with koreader in landscape mode is vastly better.

Sony is apparently still selling the DPT-RP1, and it still doesn't connect to Linux or read DjVu. I guess at least it has an OSX client.

What do you mean? I have an Onyx BOOX MAX 2 PRO 13.3" and it works quite well. As a large-screen (close to A4) hi-res (2220×1650) e-reader it is very good, especially for scientific/technical papers. In addition to two-finger touch it has a very good Wacom digitizer with stylus. On the software side it has Android with Google Play and a lot of third-party apps work OK. Sideloading APKs is possible if e.g. you want to deploy your own apps. Where Onyx botched it is the external monitor feature: The device has an HDMI input port but the interface HW doesn't support the full physical resolution of the e-ink screen which is really annoying. But otherwise not a bad device at all - and most of what it leaves to be desired on the SW side can be corrected by installing suitable apps.

>A rooted Kobo H2O with koreader in landscape mode is vastly better

What would be the interface for using it as external display? or are you telling about using it just as a document reader?; in that case it might not even serve OP's needs.

Onyx boox note pro is expensive but fwiw I really like it.

Are you using it as an external display? Is it seamless as in traditional color monitor albeit the refresh rate?

The BOOX MAX 2 sadly doees not expose its full native resolution through the external monitor interface which is a real shame. Worse, none of the supported resolutions are integer fractions of the native resolution so scaling artifacts are unavoidable. It doesn`t even seem possible to sacrifice some border area and use a suitably-sized subwindow of the screen (e.g. FHD 1920x1080) without scaling. (If somebody knows better, please leave a comment) Onyx pretends there is no problem and cheerfully tells frustrated users to adjust their OS theme and font sizes, over and over again [1]. Shame on them for ruining what could have been a great and unique feature. because wouldn`t it be for this problem, the MAX2 would finally be a decent sunlight-ready external laptop screen, at least for text writing and some light coding. Well perhaps the problem is solved in the new MAX3 device.

[1] http://bbs.onyx-international.com/t/max2-hdmi-not-useable-wr...

Thanks.

Reg feedback for Onyx, you can try passing it to this YouTuber; he covers electronic shows world over and seems to have good relations with Onyx - https://mobile.twitter.com/charbax.

Technology Connections (amazing Youtube channel btw!) has a few videos on using an Onyx Boox Max as a 2nd monitor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytpRnRke6I0 (Intro)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NfX0vlCa4k (2nd channel longer look, mini review)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D38dcArwCNc (6 months later, tips / tweaks / long term review)

No I use it as a pdf reader.

From previous discussions, I remember it being a company sitting on the tech.

You mean IP?

Yes, I think.

Soooo surely someone here knows something about this... at the fancy Harry Potter ride at Universal Studios Hollywood, they have “living paintings” as part of the ambiance, which are very clearly digital. They are large and in color, TV-sized. But they look like they are not emitting their own light. My best guess is carefully controlled brightness and some special coating (they have a paint-like finish), but that’s just a guess. Anyone know more details?

I'm using the Dasung Paperlike HD and I really like it for writing code. 13 inches, but it's real nice.

I imagine in 5-10 years or so, we'll see what you're imagining.

Maybe. I feel like e-ink could have an iPhone moment. It just needs more attention. Remarkable and similar products are analogous to pre-iphone palm pilots.

Could you share about the refresh rate and how it impacts you when programming? Is it at all an obstacle, at least at first?

Also, can you share more about the resolution?

This timing is superb; I'm this very week considering purchasing a Pro-F (1600x1200) from Dasung, which has faster refresh but lower resolution. Also a few hundred $$ cheaper. Really curious if you think the lower resolution will be a bummer, or if the higher frame rate will be unnecessary.

Go with your gut. The higher resolution means that the text looks more like "real ink", but I'm not sure if this is a big deal for you. For me, the refresh rate is just fast enough that I don't notice it while I'm editing text.

One important thing to consider, which maybe I should have shared in the other post: I don't really enjoy using the mouse on the e-ink display, because of the refresh rate. It's doable, but noticeably choppy.

If using the mouse is important to you while you code, go for the faster refresh rate!

The lower resolution might actually be nice too since it might better match your other displays.

Thanks for the response, I just ordered a 2019 Pro-F from Dasung. I'm hopeful it will help my eyes like it has helped yours.

Could you write a review on it? I've been contemplating getting one for the same purposes but I'd really like to hear some pros and cons before committing

Pros: it's super light, works outside, runs off of USB power, feels good on the eyes, has a high resolution and a very decent refresh rate. Convenient contrast buttons on the front and a quick clear button. It's VEGA mountable. But I got a lead weight so it's heavy enough for my adjustable monitor stand.

Quirks: Expect ghosting. You'll have to press the "clear" button if the only thing moving on the screen is the mouse. This is oddly satisfying and not nearly as annoying as it sounds. Like "time for a fresh slate!" Getting the right contrast is also something you'll have to get used to. Dark themes are basically unusable because of ghosting. The monitor's very high DPI isn't handled well by gnome, so stuff is smaller on the eink display than on my main monitor. It's got different needs than an LCD in terms of software configuration of themes, color management, etc. I don't think any OS was made with this thing in mind, so there are quirks. I wish there were some better "per-display" settings in gnome. But oh well.

In spite of the quirks, I don't regret getting this thing at all. It was expensive but now I'll be able to work outside. It's way easier on my eyes.

Right now I pretty much just use it for reading and writing code or doing stuff in the shell. And it's great for that. Vim is like the perfect text editor for this. I also got vs code setup alright for it too now, but it's really great with vim, and has been motivating me to use vim more.

Btw, I also got the Dasung "not e-reader" tablet which is also awesome.

These devices are quirky but really well made and designed.

Thank you so much for the detail.

Could you expand on the "easier on the eyes" part? What did your eyes feel like at the end of a work day before acquiring this monitor versus now?

Not the GP, but have you ever tried using a laptop outside, especially on a sunny day? It's not terribly pleasant, and you'll probably be squinting the whole time - the reflective surface is particularly troublesome.

I haven't tried a large e-ink display (though I'd love to, especially for coding), but I've been using Kindle e-book readers for years - the difference compared to a glossy, or even matte, Led display is incredible; it's just like reading a printed book. No squinting, no eye-strain, just really pleasant to use.

I was just having trouble focusing on the screen. My eyes would drift out of focus. It was physically uncomfortable to force my eyes to focus. So I wouldn't. But for my work I would feel like I had to at least try.

For context, I had been going through some burnout. So some part of this was probably psychological. But I would look at the screen and just feel overstimulated. Like my brain wouldn't let my eyes focus on that bright little rectangle any more.

This thing is just much more gentle to look at.

The sense of physical relief is very similar to the sense of relief you'd feel when moving from a bright screen with no blue light filter to a nice warm screen.

(Assuming you have comfortable lighting in your environment, of course.)

You can try this at home:

1. Stare at a page of a book

2. Stare at a light bulb while it's turned on (just kidding don't actually do it it's not worth it)

Which one would you rather do for 8 hours a day? I don't blame you if you say "neither one".

interesting but very expansive

A Canvas Made of Pixels (claybavor.com)

The most interesting problem to tackle was “the blue glowing screen problem”.

One of the many ways that screens give themselves away as screens is by emitting light that is “out of character” with the surrounding environment. They can be too bright or too dark relative to the things around them, and indoors, displays often seem too blue.

I solved these problems with what I call “luminance matching”. The basic idea is to sample the light falling on the frame several times a second, and then adjust the display and image parameters so that what’s displayed is “correct” given the surrounding environment.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10900439

Looks like updated link is https://www.claybavor.com/blog/a-canvas-made-of-pixels

This is what Apple is doing with True Tone.

Clay Bavor published in Dec 2015 but Apple filed their patent on March 30, 2015 - seems Apple just got in under the wire there.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

So Clay Bavor did _not_ invent that

"A year ago over the holiday break, I created a large-scale digital “canvas”" posted December 27, 2015

https://www.claybavor.com/blog/a-canvas-made-of-pixels

He claims to have invented it prior to Apple, but he didn't publish before they got their patent in.

What makes him think they didn’t invent it earlier? It takes time to publish a patent.

People like that are the worst. The sorest losers. I have unfortunately known quite a few of them and they tend to overestimate their abilities by a lot.

There is no such claim on the blog post: instead, a commenter here is making that case.

Anyway, I hate the use of "invent" here: people come up with similar ideas all the time — mostly because the tooling and technology of an era makes a set of problems solvable in a "novel" way that was not possible beforehand. Who gets to patent anything does not necessarily mean they "invented" it.

Good point. Clay at no point used the word "invent" - that was entirely me. My rather rudimentary understanding of law means that prior art would invalidate any patent. Had Clay published his design when he claimed to have built the device (Dec 2014) it would seem to have rendered Apple's patent worthless, or nearly so.

A patent is a form of intellectual property protecting an invention. An invention is a unique or novel device, method, composition or process.

If it was a invention worthy of patent in March 2015 - according to Apple - then it was an invention worthy of patent in Dec 2014, when Clay claimed to have devised and built the device.

this digital-skylight could have renewed interest with people in lockdown. https://www.claybavor.com/blog/digital-skylight

They exist. They still cost more than color displays. Larger sizes are still "call for quotation". The current sales pitch seems to be "you don't have to wire AC power to the sign", for bus stops and such.

Relevant article with many related updates and context: https://cloudconfusing.com/2020/02/07/e-ink-monitors-ready-f...

Since the demise of Pixel Qi, does anyone else have a credible laptop screen based on e-ink, that has a high enough refresh rate to be usable, and/or the ability to switch from transflective/zero-power e-ink mode to a normal screen?

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/circuitbreaker/2020/1/...

There's going to be a big display revolution soon. Microled will probably outclass everything until we're at cheap retinal laser displays.

My (meanwhile modest) hopes are with clearink [1]. Let's hope they don't go full mirasol.

1: https://youtu.be/zjJ2-cdhwMQ

E Ink proper seems to require high voltage and current to refresh. It makes sense because power will be “amortized” but refreshing it often makes it just a high power high contrast device.

Other “e-ink” displays has way too low visual quality and markets don’t like that. Brighter backlight LCD and huge battery usually solves the same problem better. IOW/IMO if such technology is to hit the market it would need to be closely comparable to LCD.

Boox makes large e-readers. They're not cheap but they are good.

https://shop.boox.com/products/boox-note-pro#custom-tab-1

Kinda look sold out... nudge nudge hint hint at all the super fancy Business People of HN...

There’s an article on the front page right now about an individual who created an art project displaying a newspaper page with a 31.2” eInk display: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22831323

Unfortunately it looks to be quite expensive, but the technology is there.

As others have already pointed out, the newly released Remarkable 2 sounds exactly like what you’re looking for. https://remarkable.com/

Also interested in reflective (non backlit) LCDs. The only ones I've seen are very small.

Like the sharp memory LCDs?

They're pretty cool but I think the limiting factor is demand rather than technology (although they do have a pretty niche construction in that the control sillicon is AFAIK actually fabricated inside/along the LCD panel)

I'm actually more interested in a high refresh rate, non backlit monitor. Power isn't really an issue for desktops, so that part of eink doesn't appeal to me. I'm trying to limit my time looking at illuminated sources.

Something like [1] with no front light.

1. https://youtu.be/kDk-t6XkFvc

Would greyscale be ok? If so, you should be able to delaminate a panel and replace the backlight with a reflector. If you'd do that with a color LCD, you'd have a very dark image, however.

What about a trans reflective display? I don't know about them being high refresh though.

Here's an interesting one: https://www.j-display.com/english/news/2016/20160520.html

Here is E-Ink's 13.3˝ ePaper Display:

https://shopkits.eink.com/product/13-3%cb%9d-epaper-display-...

31.2˝ monochrome ePaper Display:

https://shopkits.eink.com/product/31-2%CB%9D-monochrome-epap...

And here is 42˝ monochrome ePaper Display:

https://shopkits.eink.com/product/42%cb%9d-monochrome-epaper...

Pricey, unfortunately. But does the work.

Good question, I wonder the same. I would say E-ink is still the best bet in terms of no-light emission property. Someone from ReMarkable could give really good insights as they are the hottest startup building a product within this space. Other than that possibly the cheapest option would be to tile old kindles and find a way to interface with them...

Sad that Amazon makes Kindle very closed to modification in terms of software. Therefore I am a huge fan of ReMarkable because an underdog may allow us to finally build e-ink apps: https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable

> It doesn't necessarily have to be E-ink proper, but I like the idea of having something that doesn't emit its own light.

Such as an older LCD panel without a backlight? It doesn't sound like you're looking for anything special here.

Was thinking something similar - rather than an old panel you could take a newer large high res panel, chosen carefully so it's easy to separate from the back-light.

I wonder what it would look like with just paper behind it instead? (or a slightly more reflective white material). I wouldn't expect color to "transflect" very well, but it might work ok as a simple 1-bit screen, fully transmissible as possible reflecting off the paper, or fully opaque.

The LCD still needs continuous power, but far far less than the backlight.

That might end up being a superior balance... a small amount of continuous power, with the benefit of up to 60hz refresh rate if you want it.

This sounds pretty similar to the display on the Pebble Time. It was a color LCD, sometimes marketed as a low power LCD or reflective LCD. For the majority of the time the display didn't use the backlight. They don't seem to be widely manufactured in my attempts to look for them... I should check again!

Sharp’s Memory LCD, I think. Combination of SRAM cells to hold state in each pixel and improved reflexive backing, otherwise normal LCD, so data input can be stopped without losing contents.

Also to parent comment: backlit LCD without backlight looks like brownish tinted frosted glass. Transreflexives look like calculators and never like a paper. There were high contrast monochrome variant in those Memory LCD products and it looked like half silvered mirror, respectively.

Or the GameBoy Advance and Advance SP. The Advance SP had a toggle-able front light, but was very usable without it.

(A later version of the Advance SP had a regular back-lit LCD screen.)

I forgot to reply to the previous post on topic but is there someone looking for a single purpose typewriter laptop?

One that I know is Kingjim Pomera line. They have a few reflexive LCD models based on some rare Toshiba uC, an E Ink model that runs on good old ARM926EJ-S, IIRC, and a color backlit LCD model that just runs Android Linux stripped bare(no Android GUI at all). Some people are running X on the last one.

Those are only available in Japan with JP106 keyboard(think of ANSI with ISO return, ISO symbols and two extra keys next to spacebar) and I can’t assure hackability, but as an input...

There has been a great deal of improvement in color sub 12“ displays in the CPG space. Start watching for them at Walmart and Target.

Artec Design offers products for digital signage based on E Ink's 9.7", 13.3" and 32" panels:

http://www.artecdesign.ee/products/e-paper-digital-signage-p...

I use a DPT-RP1 13”. I use it everyday, however the pen has an adequate writing experience and the build quality isn’t great. I’ve used the ReMarkable before and it has a much better build quality and a better writing experience.

Foe just an electronic whiteboard there are Boogieboards.

QuirkLogic builds large 42" e-ink displays that double as whiteboards.

I would suspect they have smaller ones too.

https://www.quirklogic.com/collections/all

I found this on Hacker News. does it count? https://onezero.medium.com/the-morning-paper-revisited-35b40...

Check this out, a 32 inch reflective LCD:

https://www.j-display.com/english/news/2016/20160520.html

Looks cool! Where can I get it?

Good question!

I found a demo here on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/4hu0B2F4HU4?t=12m

Visionect 32“ or for outdoor soofa.co 42“ EInk itself has a Whiteboard now

https://onezero.medium.com/the-morning-paper-revisited-35b40...

Check out Visionect 32“ - we use 42“ for outdoor - check out Soofa.co

ReMarkable 2 ? https://remarkable.com/store/remarkable-2

Magic Mirror?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7696017

An iPad-sized, Kindle-like reader would be a godsend.

These things do exist (Sony DPT, Onyx Boox, ReMarkable) - they're just more expensive than you'd expect them to be considering what they can do.

Remarkable has a premium for the ability to write on the display with tactile feel and response time near identical to ordinary pen/pencil.

The Eink Carta generation (300dpi, 4-bit greyscale) has about 15Hz refresh rate when driven in 1bpp mode (black/white only). Combined with efficient partial refresh, this sounds like it'd not be more than a stylus sensor behind the display (as usual), and some software to properly translate this into partial refreshes.

The premium is not really high just from them having to spend particularly much. Either they make very nice margins on it, or it's really that expensive to get a screen that size.

> this sounds like it'd not be more than a stylus sensor behind the display (as usual)

And that would be a wrong guess. Eink readers with wacom styluses are not particularly new (e.g. Hanvon, onyx etc.). The remarkable 1's "claim to fame" was a greatly improved latency compared to these, i.e. to be much better than what you describe.

I tried one. And the screen did not seem any faster than the "EInk Carta" one in e.g. the Tolino Epos readers. I assume they fixed the issue with software being in the way of latency, and seem to make extensive use of partial refresh. And, yes, they did seem to integrate on a much lower level than any other recent consumer HID->screen drawing pipeline.

Back in the days of the C64, it was normal to have sub-frame average latency with +-0.5 frames jitter, due to low-level control that prevented artifacts when drawing directly to the framebuffer.

They have these but the contrast is so poor that it's hard to read for the resolution it claims to have. Try the mobile reader forums. There's large Chinese ebook readers.

Hah, this question is a blast from the past! I guess I kind of gave up at some point.

Is it that hard to tile smaller displays together?

BVG

There are some large E-ink display at bus stops in China

http://einkcn.com/post/216.html

https://www.sohu.com/a/330365162_100238338

I think it's a waste of tax-payers money. Besides why it's not been stolen yet?

For consumer electronics I found modern e-ink tablets have very good refresh rate. Watching video is pretty smooth.

> Besides why it's not been stolen yet?

Because it's not really useful to anyone.

Anything worth stealing in China does get stolen, like their attempted solar cell bicycle paths.

If you don't need refresh, a drawing board can be suitable. You can use this. https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000550295706.html?pid=808_000... OLED can work very well and I have used it for night reading over the eink display Kindle use. You may be interested in reflective LCDs like epaper too. A window outside is better for weather and writing a todo list is a better reminder. If you change your goal from remembering to do things and knowing how the outdoors is, you'll see that a large eink screen is not at all a productive use of money nor will it be the most optimal for knowing the weather or reminding you to do things. Writing notes in class helps you remember more than typing it, which in turn is better than taking a picture of the whiteboard. Famous tech enterprisers such as bill Gates and Steve jobs did not allow electronics to be used as learning tools for their children because they deemed them too distracting.

In fairness their children haven't done anything in the tech space or much of anything near tech/science. Of the 7 children: Jobs kid's one is a writer, celebrity son, goes to school. All Standford grads or attending. Of Bill gate's kids one goes to art school, the rest not much.

I would not copy them unless you have the billions for them to fall back on.

In higher level education they also use the familiar chalkboard rather than electronics. I use this not to say the merits of their children's occupations (regression to the mean is common in families of great achievements) but as a warning of what people in tech see as a threat to their own children's well being. Electronics are wonderful but not for everything. If screens work better for you, perfect! They have been a hindrance to me, addiction to screens is very common today and I am weak enough to fall into they category.

Wow, "regression to the mean".

Creating something motivates most of the people on this planet, and without going into specifics, I would claim that Gateses and Jobses of this world are not all that rare as far as their abilities are concerned. Situation and, well, luck, are a big part of where life takes people. And having been provided for will discourage most from being as driven to "succeed" (in either financial or tech/scientific sense, two most common accepted ways to success on HN).

Which is to say: don't judge according to your standards of "success".

And raising kids is anything but science, unless you have such a large number of them that statistics applies (though even then, you'd probably be breaking a bunch of laws if you tried to be scientific :)).

As such, addiction to screens is usually, imo, an addiction to specific type of content, or rather interaction (or lack thereof) type.

If they're not that rare, why are they rare? Where did I make a judgement on their success or even use that word? Are you replying to the right person? I doubt you've looked into the theory behind screen addiction (I didn't believe it either). It's the vivid colors and the effects they have on your brain according to neuroscience, plus the manipulation that companies utilize. I've changed my screens to grayscale and have no such problems now.

I think I explained why they are "rare" even if they aren't: circumstances, motivation and drive to succeed in a particular way, a way you classify as "great achievements" (not success, sorry for equating it: I might have missed some nuanced differences there).

It's actually quite interesting that you even consider Gates and Jobs having "great achievements" (other than business success, which is clear), yet condone screen addiction (which their core business were mostly about).

A quick search does not give me any study relating technical properties of screens to addiction-like effects: do you have any pointers? (Other than the common "LED-light-interferes with sleep patterns".)

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