Hacker News Reader

Comment by ggm | Hacker News Reader

I'm not hunting to a false moral equivalence and there is no need for a bilateral symmetry here. I just observe as the comments in the Krebs article do: where are the Dems/BlueFlag equivalents? Their absence is interesting.

I actually do take heart from a lack of obscured PAC type industry funded backrooms behind the absent 'stay locked down' protest movement. Is throws the lack of goodwill into sharper focus perhaps.

View on HN

It's because the equivalency doesn't exist. The "both sides" argument is a political argument used by the republican party and it's always in the context of "Look! They're just as bad as us." as an excuse to justify their behaviour.

Only one side spent months pretending that the cornavirus pandemic didn't exist when we should have been preparing for it. It was one side that pitted the states against each other and held back life-saving supplies based on personal favors to the president. It's one side that is fueling the dangerous protests right now.

That's also only just the last few months. So much has happened that I barely even remember all of the other crises that one side has caused. The Ukraine scandal, Russian interference, election fraud and the long trail of indictments that came from it. There's also hurricane Maria (which foreshadowed covid-19), spygate, the revolving door of the presidential cabinet, and the fact that it's such a problem that some seats are just unfilled because they cannot find enough people who are willing to put up with "the one side" for them. All of this is well documented by loads of reputed news sources and there is no equivalent "other side" to this behavior.

Edit: It really stinks, because I personally lean conservative on financial issues, but I cannot in good conscience support this administration.

Where are you getting this idea that only the Republicans "pretended that the pandemic didn't exist"?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/as-vir...

Nancy Pelosi dismissing the threat and encouraging people to celebrate in large groups in Chinatown on Feb 24th:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/30/nancy-pelosi-d...

Here's a tweet, still live, by NYC Mayor Bill Deblasio on March 2 urging people to get out and socialize:

https://twitter.com/BilldeBlasio/status/1234648718714036229

A piece by a reporter including a video that Trump made of media sources downplaying the Coronavirus threat:

https://dailycaller.com/2020/04/19/unfit-to-print-trump-coro...

All left-wing media outlets spent their time downplaying it. Here's a few pictures:

https://twitter.com/DanCrenshawTX/status/1247505671672795137

I don't recall any statements from any Democrats criticizing them for their delayed reactions. Their reactions are instead to deny or ignore that they said those things, and try to blame Trump instead. Meanwhile, when Trump instituted a fairly moderate ban on travel from China, they screamed at the top of their lungs that it was racist. Now they're screaming that he didn't do more sooner. What is it with these people?

This comment is a great example of bad faith pro-Trump arguments. It is a despicable bunch of disinformation. It’s cherry picking a few old comments while ignoring the overwhelming tide of know-nothing minimization of the pandemic that characterizes Trump’s comments right up to the present day.

It’s literally the “Both Sides” fallacious argument. Cherry pick a tiny handful of tweets from one side and compare it with the constant torrent of communication in multiple media forms over months... and claim that shows both sides are equally bad.

Yes. This argument style passed its sell-by date long ago and I have lost patience with those who practice it.

I get that idea because all of the sources you're citing are extremely far-right biased publications [1] or like one-off tweets that you've cherry picked from a background of more grounded discussion.

None of this compares to the clear message that has been coming from the highest offices of our government for the past three months.

What's ironic is that I think you're using the "both sides" argument right here for all of the wrong reasons I complained about in my original post. Even if the democratic party organized an effort to discredit health experts and denounce the virus (which they didn't), why does that matter? They would also deserve to be shamed just as the current administration does.

I care about having a competent federal response to this ongoing crisis, not for example holding up federal stimulus checks to make sure your signature gets printed on them for your reelection campaign [2]. Also, please note that I've sourced that fact from the BBC, a reputable news source.

[1] https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52293910

I like to wait a while before responding to contentious political posts, in the possibly vain hope of keeping the temperature below boiling.

Since you seem to be implying that I'm using a poor argument style, let me provide my own example of a poor argument style I see a lot nowadays:

The Dems do something dirty. They find something similar that the Repubs did, and publish 10,000 articles about it and scream at the top of their lungs, even if it isn't as bad. Then, when anybody points out that the Dems did that too, or worse, or first, you can accuse them of making a "both sides" argument and shut down any display of how bad their own side is. Nice little trick they have there.

Works even better when their media allies refuse to publish anything negative on them. Then you can smear anybody that publishes articles on the dirty things they did as "extremely far-right based publications".

Am I completely crazy here, or did Trump institute a relatively loose restriction on travel from China when this thing was kicking off, the Democrats screamed that he was an evil racist bigot for doing that? Then later, they screamed that he was incompetent for not instituting a more severe ban earlier on.

I find it interesting that the most extreme stuff seems to be coming from the press, admittedly on both sides. The actual elected officials in charge of stuff seem to be getting along relatively well. Republicans and Democrats, moderate and extreme, left and right, don't seem to have all that much bad to say about each other. Is that so bad? I'm fine with it. Maybe we could all focus on getting along and getting through this rather than trying to dunk on the other side for some imperfect calls made when nobody had enough information yet. I'm not perfectly innocent, but I'm willing to stop if you are.

I'll also add that I looked at the allsides.com site you linked. I'll admit that I wasn't expecting much, but I actually find their ratings to be quite respectable. I suspect many on the extremes of both sides would quibble with the groupings, but it seems like a pretty good first-pass on ratings.

Why would anyone want a “stay locked down” PAC? It’s not a political position that really benefits anyone, it’s a humanitarian one.

And also, arguably, an economic one. A population where everyone over 50 (middle class or not) is afraid to do anything in public because a deadly pandemic is rampant, will not be conductive to an economic recovery.

I've seen multiple economists make that argument in the last few weeks. The view that it's the economy vs. health & safety is very much contested.

It's not the dems, but pro-government fake accounts were used in the UK: https://twitter.com/jdpoc/status/1252266724449230848

This is what seems odd to me too. IMO, there should be a bunch of groups, both Red and Blue, complaining in all directions. We're all short on information here on how this virus really works, and all of the options kind of suck.

I don't see many grass-roots groups complaining that we should lock down harder and longer. I guess they wouldn't be taking much public action anyways though by definition? Maybe there should be some virtual protests or something.

Grass-roots groups complaining that the lockdowns are too long and strict are out there, but it seems only on the Right. Okay yeah there are some fake astro-turfed ones, but there are plenty of real ones too. But where are the Left/Blue team? Doesn't anyone on their side think this is too extreme?

Generally, my experience is that astroturfing tends to occur for topics that are:

1. Unpopular with the population (or at least heavily divisive)

2. That one or more parties seeks to profit/gain from

Neither is really the case with the lockdown, or extending it. A majority seem to support these social distancing measures, and it's not good for business to continue them.

If you want the equivalent from the Dems, then see the ShareBlue stuff on Reddit and their actions on Reddit/social media sites.

Same type of question: was there ever popular left-wing AM radio? Like a counterpart to Rush Limbaugh? Like highly emotive and monetized liberal (in the American sense) talk radio?

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_America_(radio_network)

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. But I don't think it qualifies as "popular". The Wikipedia page says it lost around $10mil a year and then folded after 6 years in a mess of debts.

At around the same time, Rush Limbaugh's salary was $30mil+.

Highly emotive and monetized liberal radio? Yes, it exists, and if you donate you get a tote bag.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com