Hacker News Reader

Comment by d4mi3n | Hacker News Reader

AA is also pretty well known for having very mixed success rates [1]. I believe the truth of the matter is people form addictions for a wide variety of social, psychological, and physiological reasons.

12 step programs work for about 40% of the people who participate, and a large portion of that success is attributed to the availability of such programs. [2]

I believe logic has it’s place. Like a 12 step program, it won’t work for everyone, but there is a place for rational approaches to treatment of addictions.

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_...

2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evidence-based-livin...

View on HN

Excuse my ignorance, but is there an atheist form of AA and similar 12-steps programs?

My knowledge of them is very limited to pop culture (like its depiction in TV shows such as The Wire, Breaking Bad and Grey's Anatomy), but their depictions always seemed annoying to me because they are all about god, submission to a "higher power", and "the original sin"/"flawed humans" in one way or the other. If you are actively atheist, you will find this approach off-putting and it won't help you.

Yes: https://www.addictionrecoveryguide.org/resources/recovery/ra...

Interesting! I didn't know, for example, about Secular AA.

Reading their brochure, however, it seems they are effectively not a 12-step program, since they ditch or ignore most of the steps (a must if they want to remain religion-neutral, since about half the steps mention god, a higher power or prayer in one way or the other).

From their brochure:

> "What about the 12 Steps? How can you be A.A. without following them? A.A. co-founder Bill W.’s thinking evolved on many issues [...] he wrote that, “so long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most antisocial, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholic Aonymous group has been formed [...] these rampant individuals are still an AA group if they think so!”"

That's a very lax definition. It's very hard to measure effectiveness with this...

Hi, Although AA references a "higher power" and a lot of their rituals are obviously based on Protestant Christianity, there are quite a few long term members who are openly agnostic or atheist. I myself prefer the term agnostic, as although I doubt there is a God out there, I would find it pretty cool if I was wrong. Anyhow, If that is what is keeping you or a friend from trying it out, please don't let that stop you. Also feel free to contact me, email in profile.

Thanks for the offer! I know it's a cliché to say this, but I'm not an addict (no alcohol, no drugs, no smoking, no overeating, nothing I'd consider an addiction. Maybe I could do more physical exercise though!) and I'm not looking for help for myself or anyone I know. I was just curious about this aspect of AA :)

I'm not sure how standard AA can help an atheist, since about half their 12-steps mention god, submitting to a higher power or praying. If atheists say it helps them, I believe them -- who am I to doubt it? But I don't understand the principle at work.

My understanding of the principle is that you often need a much larger rework of your life to quit an addiction than just changing the habit itself. So much of an addiction is the habits and preconditions that you take before using a drug. For example, first a person might have a lunch break at 12:30, then they'll go and talk to coworker X who also has a lunch break, then they'll take a walk, then they'll start lighting up. All of these little habits have nothing to do with smoking individually, but your brain is already primed to assume 'lunch break -> chat -> walk -> smoke'.

Being willing to alter your deepest held beliefs predisposes you to altering other things about your life, from big things like moving across town to small things like taking a lunch break at a different time.

There's also a social element that I think is hard to reproduce in a secular context. Convincing a bunch of adults to coordinate their schedules is much easier if they believe that they will go to heaven if they do so. Furthermore, you already have a public building as a location to hold meetings. Hell, even the architecture of a lot of churches is awe-inspiring. They're physically designed to be these places where you come to terms with your faults (sins) and begin to deal with them. Of course, that also means that their design is religious, with religious iconography in the stained windows and on the walls.

Charlie Munger has a theory of hour AA works that is pretty convincing. He says that AA uses a number of natural psychological tendencies together to create a "Lollapalooza effect" that helps people to stay stopped, once they quit drinking.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22554750

Reply on news.ycombinator.com