Do some surgical implants do more harm than good?
newyorker.com
newyorker.com
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/23/dan-crensh...
Distilleries have been trying to make hand sanitizer, but the FDA has made this much more difficult by requiring that the alcohol be denatured first:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/distillers-lawmakers-pressur...
Companies developed at-home coronavirus tests, but the FDA shut them down:
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/21/fda-warns-new-home-coron...
(the FDA later approved one by LabCorp - at-home testing does in fact work - but this took almost a month, and AFAICT the original sellers still haven't been approved)
The Apple Watch has the ability to test blood oxygenation, which would be incredibly useful now, but it can't because that would be an illegal medical device:
https://www.city-journal.org/fda-blocks-apple-watch-blood-ox...
Amusingly, both Fitbit and Apple are part of the FDA's digital health software precertification pilot program[1], which is intended to streamline the approval process. If not for the FDA, both companies could have shipped this 3+ years ago. I'm sure the data would have saved quite a few lives.
1. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/digital-health/digital-h...
This article doesn't seem to say that regulators are wise and benevolent. It looked like the author was, in fact, troubled by the lack of regulation as cited here:
> The root of the problem, of course, is money. In medicine, progress is driven by innovation, and, in our society, innovation is driven by profit. “Among implant manufacturers,” Schneider writes, “market analysis drives research and consideration of device innovation.” The implantable-device industry is even more lucrative, for many companies, than the pharmaceutical industry is. At the largest companies, operating-profit margins are typically twenty-five per cent or higher. In 2014, the industry’s over-all estimated revenues totalled more than a hundred and thirty-six billion dollars.
> The financial incentives within this industry are one of the reasons that its lack of regulation is troubling.
I believe the baseline assumption is that many people are trying to make a buck, and something like coronavirus is a great opportunity to scam people. Is that wrong?
I'll bet if I purchase ten coronavirus test kits "from the internet", at least 9 out of 10 will be bogus. In the absence of regulation, that would be 13 out of 10. There's a potential for truly massive scams: 7 billion people want something in tight supply, just announce you've got a test kit for $19.95, maybe mail people some pH test strips or nothing at all, and retire to your own private island. One of the reasons government exists is to protect the populace from threats to their health such as health scams.
The FDA & CDC shipped their own tests that were bogus. What's worse: They threatened researchers who invented their own tests that worked.[1] Thanks to the government's incompetence, testing was delayed by a month in the US.
1. From https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...: Later that day, the investigators and Seattle health officials gathered with representatives of the C.D.C. and the F.D.A. to discuss what happened. The message from the federal government was blunt. “What they said on that phone call very clearly was cease and desist to Helen Chu,” Dr. Lindquist remembered. “Stop testing.”
> scheming, wicked villains, or power hungry idiots
to explain any of their recent misbehavior - perfectly banal explanations suffice. At the end of the day, our regulators will let people die invisibly if it means avoiding bad press because that's what they are incentivized to do.
Alcohol can be denatured by making it literally unsafe to drink (methanol, gasoline, etc), or by making it really unpalatable (denatonium benzoate, vinegar, etc), or both. The list of agents and formulae are here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/part-21
Balancing the safety effects of kids eating hand sanitizer vs. the safety effects of not having enough hand sanitizer is tough, but insisting on a bitterant doesn't strike me as totally indefensible.
> Repeated efforts to implement a registry system in the United States have failed. The implant industry has a powerful lobby in Washington, and the courts and recent legislation have made regulatory oversight more feeble.
Wonder about the history of this. Which lobby groups are making it hard to build a registry?
1. People care about keeping medical information private.
2. Having people opt into making their medical information public would skew the data.
3. Your doctor can't be arsed to update a global registry every time you go to him for a checkup. In the long run, you have a relationship with your GP, not the surgeon who put the implant in.
4. And yeah, I assume the implant industry would like to have the aegis of the high trust people place in the medical profession, without having to do the hard work of earning that trust.
Feigned ignorance is a great defense.
Shades of Boeing here. Interesting.
The problem is that a pre-market assessment (PMA) is a huge and expensive beast, if you require every device/implant/etc. to go through that it will definitely slow things down a lot and make them more expensive...
So the pre-market notification and de-novo paths were created to keep rigor in the system without adding years and millions to development costs of everything. For the most part it works fairly reasonably to balance these concerns.
There is already a classification system (I, II, III) which captures this and can force your device through a PMA if it is deemed high enough risk.
One could argue that class II is being used to much I suppose, but that is a very different issue than pointed at by boeing.
How is that parallel to the Boeing situation? We know there was an engineering failure followed by a process failure wrt 737 max.
If we have similar evidence in devices (i.e. the process isn't working, or the developers are cutting corners, or both) that should certainly be addressed. But drawing that line with information such as this article seems a stretch, at best.
> It's a rigorous process, that is designed to remove or reduce the need for a different rigorous process. It's been working pretty well for decades.
Just like the FAA and Boeing until it didn't?
> We know there was an engineering failure followed by a process failure wrt 737 max.
My reading of the situation was a process failure, a couple of engineering screw ups, and possibly user error.
Could the FDA process become weaker to the point of a problem, sure. Is there any evidence that it currently is? I haven't seen any. Is this something they (the FDA and similar) should keep an eye on, absolutely
Honestly, I don't see how you are drawing the parallel. In what wad do you think the FDA is making the "same" mistake as the FAA did?
Similarly, the FDA grandfathered in a bunch of devices and because they are "substantially equivalent," the FDA did not ask for recertification and the safety process was not gone through for these devices.
If you argued that the V&V necessary for a 510(k) filing is insufficient, I would understand where you are coming from, and it could be interesting.
If you argued that a PMA is needed for all medical devices, I would understand the argument but probably disagree.
Your 'similarly' just isn't that similar, unless I've vastly misunderstood the FAA/Boeing case.
Again it's clear that the FDA could fall into a state where it's review and audit processes had the same sort of problems that the FAA exhibited with the 737max. But I don't see evidence at all that this has actually happened.
What do you think the substantively equivalent bar for a 510(k) allows a company to do?
Regulatory capture is a real risk for any regulatory oversight, but it is not synonymous with that regulatory oversight.
I don't think anyone in this chain has tried to claim that the 510(k) is not a safety process nor that it is not followed - merely that avoiding more rigorous testing and review of a new device by tying it to the safety rating of a previous device sounds exactly like what happened with boeing's 737 max, and secondly, that existing regulations incentivize bad outcomes whereby companies make more expensive/dangerous/worse products that get less testing.
> What do you think the substantively equivalent bar for a 510(k) allows a company to do?
Honestly, I have literally no idea, and have been trying to tease that information out of you. Specifically, how does that bar differ from the one that Boeing had to clear with the 737 Max took which took 5 years and a few billion dollars (I don't know how much of that was for compliance, but we can guess its at least 10s of millions).
This is literally the first article I found when I searched google:
https://www.medicaldesignandoutsourcing.com/boeings-737-max-...
I really didn't get that from your comments. I will try.
1st off I'm no expert in aerospace regulation or anything like it so perfectly happy to be wrong, but my assumption is this: The 737max issue arose because of a combination of two things. 1 the engineering standards at Boeing have been eroded (so they cut corners) and 2) the FAA has been subject to regulatory capture to the degree that they did not catch this (or did not/could not act effectively when they did). If I'm wrong here please advise.
Now I suspect there are a lot of differences in how broadly these things are applied so I will try and draw as close a parallel as I can. Imagine you and I have a med dev company and we are building a new version of a device X, call it X2, and we are using a self-predicated 510(k) to do it. When we file that we still have a full system V&V. We have a hazard analysis that can included everything for X, but must focus on any functional differences between X and X2, We run all our system trace & testing, produce he documentation, and file it with the FDA panel. Now if the panel don't like anything in the V&V (or the rest of the filing) they can ask use to support it better, and that includes the previously covered aspects. If they think the predicate is too much of a stretch they can kick it back. If we can't make them comfortable they can push it to refile with new methods or a to a full PMA (i.e. clinical trials) and force us to go the whole route (along with anyone else doing the same thing, they can't just target our company). We absolutely can propose pretty much anything to address the variations in our machine, but they don't have to accept any of them.
So I can see how we might pressure our engineers to cut corners, and we can see how we might paper it over to file. But I can't see the mechanism where the FDA fails to do it's part (or for that matter, how a clinical trial would have caught everything that might be missed that way).
Make sense?
Again, I'm not saying the FDA couldn't have such a problem, all regulatory bodies can. I just don't see evidence that it does have this problem. And the narrative that the creation of a 510(k) path was due to regulatory capture seems pretty weak, for what it's worth.
This is a set of anecdotes and editorializing about a very statistical kind of question.
The idea is that you want the insurance companies to profit from patients getting timely, cost-effective care, rather than incentivizing them to drive up costs and delays.
Examples would be grocery stores, clothing, transportation, etc. You can say 'this one is different' about every single industry, but why does that difference matter?
The average person understands much more about healthcare products than they do about transportation products. Your car is made up of >20k components, and extremely intricately designed. Understanding the factors that go into a reliable car requires a fairly advanced understanding of thermodynamics, metallurgy, fracture mechanics, electronics, software engineering, statistics, and manufacturing. Most healthcare is comparatively primitive.
If you're worried about the quality of procedures (as I am), it's a doctor/hospital issue, not an insurance issue. Doctors have very effectively avoided oversight, and they often cause huge problems for their patients. The leading cause of death in hospitals in medical error.
Agreed. However, they make a very good living off this and will fight to keep things that way.
When you buy a car, you know all competitors, their prices, there is ton of information about maintenance, durability and all other factors that may cost you money. In healthcare you get none of this.
I am not trying to single out one factor in health care. Insurers, providers, pharmaceuticals and the various middlemen are all guilty of making an excellent living off this insanely stupid system on the back of patients who suffer from it health wise and financially. Where it gets evil is the fact they lobby for keeping things that way by spreading a lot of misinformation.
Hospitals and clinics in some states have been very successful in reducing competition, to the extent that you often need permission from your competitors to open a new one. Hospitals have also avoided much scrutiny by avoiding cost-accounting, which is a very interesting tactic.
Pharmaceuticals and insurance companies are the bogey-men of the industry, but they're not as profitable as most imagine, and their high overheads are largely due to regulatory burden.
2) For future patients (or their doctors), how will you convince them that your recommendation is credible and not some kind of front for a specific manufacturer?
I work in the medical device industry and have observed (live, bedside), plenty of laparoscopic surgeries and have seen plenty of good surgeons and also many bad ones.
I'm not defending the medical devices (every company I've worked at has had recalls and devices fail, injuring people), but the reality is that the implant is only as good as it is placed.
Even now sometimes I wonder is surgery a science? Does it use the scientific method?
On the other hand, they are relatively to run and interpret. For a drug trial, you can give everybody a fixed dose of a drug (X mg; Y mg/kg bodyweight) in a fixed way (pill, injection, etc). Surgery is a lot harder to standardize. Along with the patient-to-patient variability, there's also surgeon-to-surgeon variability. Different surgeons might be faster or slower, cut more (and get a better visualization of whatever they're doing) or less (reduced tissue damage). Moreover, the individual surgeons improve with practice and it sometimes takes a lot (e.g., 100-200 knee arthroscopies) to plateau, which makes it tricky to evaluate a totally new method.
This is a nice paper discussing some of the issues in more detail: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415901/
But I work in medical devices and I know for sure that there isn’t much data available of how well a procedure works. There is no centralized database that tracks outcomes. Most surgeons view a surgery as success if the surgery as such went well. They don’t do much tracking of whether the patient is doing better so there is risk they will keep doing surgeries that don’t really work. The manufacturer gets some information but also not much.
There definitely should be a countrywide or even better worldwide database of outcomes.
"""" “It is but fitting that a great medicus like you,” said Nello, adjusting the cloth, “should be shaved by the same razor that has shaved the illustrious Antonio Benevieni, the greatest master of the chirurgic art.”
“The chirurgic art!” interrupted the doctor, with an air of contemptuous disgust. “Is it your Florentine fashion to put the masters of the science of medicine on a level with men who do carpentry on broken limbs, and sew up wounds like tailors, and carve away excrescences as a butcher trims meat? Via! A manual art, such as any artificer might learn, and which has been practised by simple barbers like yourself—on a level with the noble science of Hippocrates, Galen, and Avicenna, which penetrates into the occult influences of the stars and plants and gems!—a science locked up from the vulgar!”
"""
Likewise for OTC and prescription drugs, cleaning products, garden products, pet foods, etc. Companies do not always have your best interests in mind. Class-action lawsuits are good at showing how bad they can be.
Infection always has and likely always will be a risk when you open up a human. Evaluating, understanding, and measuring those risks is the only way we can begin to mitigate them.
On the bright side, recent medical technology has also brought us a lot of minimally or non-invasive procedures. Those generally have much lower (sometimes almost zero) risks of infection.
This tragic and inexcusable outcome is doubly so because even a "successful" implantation of a spinal fusion has, essentially, zero chance of improving pain or mobility outcomes[1] and patients would be much better off pursuing a moderate, graduated course of walking-as-physical-therapy.
I'm sorry that your mother died.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_fusion#Effectiveness
People love to talk about "worth the risk and cost" etc when they have no TRUE idea what the risk and cost are. People love to justify, explain, defend those who do the damage and love to blame, demean, and ignore those who suffer it. Nice little just world package to feel safe and smart. I wish I had never gone to a doctor and I wish I had known the realities of medical mistake frequency and unneeded surgery instead of the whitewashed nonsense that is sold.
Even now...post suicide attempt...the system and people are just proving what I believed was true all along...but being correct doesn't bring me any solace or pain relief.
*I understand it's bad form to complain about voting...but when your life is so painful and full of invalidation by family, society, and "professionals" even a person pushing a button to further invalidate you hurts and just reinforces what you believe about ego and selfishness in others. Being "right" or in control is always more important than others to most people. I just cannot fathom the thinking of kicking someone who is down over their experience or a generalized comment. Even if I disagreed with someone I wouldn't do that.
The problem with your post is that you have predicated it entirely on your personal experiences, while being unwilling to describe those experiences in detail. You have not told us, for example, what kind of surgery was performed, what the complications were, who "scared" you "into having surgery" (and how), or what the negative effects on your life were, specifically.
You are free to choose not to share this information -- nobody can fairly expect you to share such intimate and painful details. I realize that is very difficult. But without specifics, an account of your personal experiences does not contribute very much to the discussion.
If I laid out details...which I have done many times...those details would be ignored, picked apart, invalidated, twisted...and nothing good happens. Occasionally a good soul reaches out and offers support of some sort...but only once in my life has that ever been actionable and beyond "I understand and that sucks". I know it offends people...and I don't even care anymore...but most people are in it entirely for themselves as I have said. Everything they do and say is for their own emotional and physical need and even their seemingly good actions toward others is self serving. My mistake was believing the few mentors and good examples of loving human beings I have been fortunate to know were not unicorns and were just people I had to get out in the world and find. But unicorns they were/are. I learned after my suicide attempt how even when things are at their worst people will still punch down, betray, lie, abuse, cheat, and step on you for their own needs. They prevent people from opting out of life because that scares and angers them...but they refuse to do whats needed to allow those people in need to survive. They just keep you in a nice smoldering fire because that's best for them. But since I AM a feeling human being I cannot just accept it and suffer the fire...I get upset and lash out and speak out...and it just stokes the flames and I regret it. Cannot win...can only hurt.
You are not being victimized. Your post was downvoted. It is not a big deal. Nothing bad happened to you here today.
>if they don't "contribute to the discussion" in the way they want then they are invalidated.
It is a community norm to downvote posts that do not contribute to the discussion. I like that norm. It's one of the reasons I choose to post here. If you don't like that rule, there may be other discussion boards more suited to you.
>If I laid out details...which I have done many times...those details would be ignored, picked apart, invalidated, twisted...and nothing good happens.
If you choose to assume, before you post anything, that you cannot expect the people here to be reasonable, then there is no reason to post here at all. Why would you expect people to believe you when you give no information, given that you do not expect them to believe you if you do give the information?
Nobody can do anything for you if you won't let them.
I am done. I am not going to continue to go back and forth. No matter what I say or do there is reason to interrogate, invalidate, blame. Nothing is every enough for anyone and every answer leads to more questions and more positioning to dismiss. I know you don't agree...don't "believe"...it doesn't matter. For you this is an opportunity to win a debate or show you are smarter or better. That's what people do. My only mistake is beating my head against that same wall of human ego because I am in pain and want to make noise to relieve it.