Could a randomness machine help you fight procrastination? | Hacker News Reader

Could a randomness machine help you fight procrastination?

excelerity.com

156 pointsarnejenssen60 comments

I don't like convoluted schemes to make myself "productive". Hold a carrot on a stick in one hand, a whip in the other and feel bad about myself? That's no way to live.

I try to find better reasons why I do the things that I do - why isn't it exciting right now? I try to check my emotions - is something bothering me so I flee to Instagram? I actively try to enjoy small pauses to reflect on what I just did, read or learned, how to generalize, memorize and improve it.

And I want to smell the flowers along the way, just like all humans have done before us.

> I try to check my emotions - is something bothering me so I flee to Instagram?

What do you do when you know what's bothering you, but it's not something you can really fix?

I know why I'm stressed, but the dishes still need to be cleaned.

Well, I'm currently taking some time off, working a bit on two unpaid, fun projects. I am learning some Docker, I take long walks and practice yoga.

My stress level has reduced.

I try to remember that if there's nothing I fan do about something, there's no point in worrying about it. Worrying should be a call to action, the energy you spend worrying is better spent solving.the thing you're worrying about, if you can't, or can't until a later date, then it's pointless to worry.

The other thing is, at least i've found anyway, i've usually been wrong about whatever i've worried about, either the severity of my worries were excessive or I ended up being blindsided by something totally different than what I was actually worried about.

That being said, it's hard, I still find myself overwhelmed by things I'm worried about, so that's when I follow what UweSchmidt said and focus on hobbies and activities and stuff. But, i've found that can be kind of dangerous because, at least, me personally i end up becoming focused on these things to the detriment of the rest of my life and I still end up not washing the dishes and stuff.

Then I explicitly talk to myself about how I am choosing to endure the discomfort.

If I have to go into a situation: "This is hard. This is scary. This is worth it and I am stronger than I feel."

If I really have no power over it: "This is hard. This is scary. This too shall pass and I am stronger than I feel." I find repeating the Litany against Fear to help too.

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Sometimes I choose to distract one half of my working memory. Doing the dishes only requires visuo-spacial working memory, so I'll put on a non-mathematical podcast or call a friend.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/working%20memory.html?fbcli...

Agreed. I find that the original cause in most activities producing procrastination is lack of purpose. So in my case the ultimate solution to procrastination is to do only things that I find purposeful (both on short-term and long-term scale).

I agree. Purpose is important. However most things that are worth doing are hard. As a result we will experience moments doubt and uncertainty even when when the purpose is clear, and then it is easy to slip into procrastination. In addition for most people we also have tasks we can't avoid. Like filling out tax reports or travel claims.

Your first point is very apt! Never thought about it like that, but it makes perfect sense.

Feeling like I accomplished nothing (or at least not what I could have accomplished) in a given day when I go to sleep due to procrastination is enough of a whip already. We all have our favorite distractions that feel like carrots at the time but are unfulfilling.

My emotions are untrustworthy. If I follow them blindly I will end up addicted to dopamine and simultaneously depressed.

There's nothing wrong with manufacturing your own carrots and whips to help you get somewhere you want to be.

And sometimes you just need to hold a gun to the primitive brain and just make it do what needs to be done.

Which is often what procrastination results in. Pushing things off until the downsides outweigh the resistance to start.

Same. After a long period of my life where I was driven by unquestionned motives.. I started to realize that I stopped feeling normally happy for 20 years.

It was either an unhealthy desire(fear?) for excellency, or social anxiety, or maybe a fantasy that going deeper would lead to a better life but it's not.

I now do simple things, and progress slowly on stuff I like. If it's not a simple cool feeling inside I drop it.

It's great that you're sharing what works for you. And indeed, that's the ideal to aspire to: procrastination is a sub-optimal response to emotions, so if you're able to check your emotions and reflect, that's what you should do! Also, feeling bad about oneself can be counterproductive too. It's useful for every discussion of procrastination to have these reminders.

But if you're able to do that, I think what it amounts to is that you don't have it so bad. For someone suffering much more from procrastination, I'd like to caution against thinking “I ought not to need convoluted schemes; I should be able to fix my procrastination by just checking my emotions…” etc. Try everything, do whatever helps. To use your example, if I know it would be good for me to do X but it's too hard and I'll go check Instagram instead, then despite knowing that it would be good for me to reflect about my emotions… that too may be too hard and I'll go check Instagram instead too.

I'm speaking from experience: a long time ago I had tried blocking my usual distraction sites except at certain times of day/week, then that method somehow stopped working for me, also at some point I guess I started thinking I ought not to do it — but after starting to do it again last week (more or less: trying not to beat myself up for the times I bypassed it), I'm now able to do things like journaling to check in with my emotions when I notice myself procrastinating, etc. Every bit helps.

Maybe you're not in the right spot right now, not doing what you really want to do? Maybe a new job, new scenery would be good. Maybe taking a bit of a break.

Maybe all one needs is a small dose of amphetamines, and all will get back on track.

Actually I've already changed jobs/teams two times in the last ~2 years. But I wasn't even talking about "work" alone. I also procrastinate, to an incredible (to most people) extent, on: exercise, chores (laundry, dishes, taxes), which I guess everybody procrastinates to some extent on, and on personal fun projects (those I've told others about, and those that are only ideas in my head), and things as simple as sending a short "hey how are you" email to a very dear friend -- all with serious consequences over the last couple of decades. For instance, when you look forward with eagerness and anticipation all week to doing some particular thing on the weekend, and then when the time comes you just scroll Twitter all day for two days in a row. Basically anything I wish my future self would do: my future self doesn't seem to like getting messages from its past self :-)

Yes the reason for procrastination can often be some kind of "not wanting to do it", but it can also be perfectionism (wanting it too much / to do it to a very high standard), counterproductive habits/addictions, and it turns out on reflection (checking in with emotions), that it is even possible to be "uncomfortably excited" and not know how to handle that discomfort. Whether and how much you procrastinate is a function of both your motivation and your basic efficacy (I guess "executive dysfunction" is a clinical version of this problem) -- or to put it another way, it's a function of not just "value" but also "expectancy" and "impulsiveness" in the procrastination equation (see e.g. https://alexvermeer.com/getmotivated/), and it's OK (and good!) to try addressing in whatever order, trying any possible solution and experimenting until you find what works for you.

My intention with my previous comment was simply to highlight that there are degrees of procrastination, and to warn those who may need it against avoiding solutions that may help them (out of "this isn't the ideal way" perfectionism). It was not my intention to go into detail about myself, but I've done that here (thanks to your well-meant advice and) to make the point again.

That's really not helpful advice to the vast majority of people who are stuck by circumstances to do what they don't truly want to do.

I have inattentive-subtype ADHD and I think

1. "I ought not to need convoluted schemes" is often an unhealthy thought. We are humans. We build tools to care for each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_M._Spangler#Invention_of...

2. Part of the systems we build are the metaphors and self-talk which acts as software in our own minds. But if you've grown up being distracted, you've grown up with people expressing how disappointed they are in you. It is worth questioning if you're taking that external narrative and trying to use it to motivate you...because it may just be pushing you not to predict[1] your ability to succeed. There may be much more effective software to install.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/12/toward-a-predictive-th...

ADHDer here. I've found that the core of having a productive day is:

1. Take care of my health: sleep, exercise, food, medication, socially-bonding conversation.

2. Connect to Why -- That is why a good Product Manager so valuable for programming and a clear picture of my audience curiosity so valuable for writing.

3. Recognize signs of success -- Thats what makes Test-Driven Development so valuable for programming and Question Driven Drafting so valuable for writing.

4. Get into rhythm which balances focus and exploratory de-focus -- The pomodoro technique is useful here. Also, talking with Test Engineers.

I like what Jocko Willink says; Accountability is a crutch: useful to notice and endure a problem, but something you should then you should then drive you to find the cause of the problem and incorporate a fix. That fix is part of building your personal discipline. I think the mistake a lot of people make with discipline is that they imagine it harshly -- like a drill sergeant whipping you into shape. But whips only make sense to enslave someone to do something they don't want to do. Healthy discipline feels like something effortful which nurtures you.

   Your mind is a garden of your own
   to terrace and irrigate,
   to plant and to graft,
   to water and weed and repair,
   -- and yes, to artificially fertilize if needed --
   so that whatever the weather,
   out of your impulses
   will grow the actions which bear fruit
   according to what you truly value.

What is question driven drafting?

A technique for writing getting words onto paper when you've got writers' block.

Step 1: Ask a question.

Step 2: Give the first answer that comes to mind, including "I don't know."

Step 3: Ask a follow-up question like "how do you know that?" or "what makes this hard to know?" or "really? Why is that?" or "why does that matter?"

Step 4: Answer it

and just keep going like this for 20 minutes until you've gotten used to typing and have started to picture an audience that is curious about the topic.

I've only used it for nonfiction, but I imagine that it could work for fiction too if you put a video of a campfire on.

This may seem like a convoluted scheme but I think it does have solid grounding. Not everyone has developed the same capability for internal reward and not everyone can arrive at this through rational means. Our limbic system is the source of this and the most powerful way to program it is through association. If one can muster enough self-discipline to stick to a regimen as outlined in the article then they should be able to adjust their cost function quite a bit.

It does seem a bit clinical but it's one of the few ways we have of communicating with our autonomic systems. Repeated behaviour, association, physical stimulus, and diet. It makes for a crude language but it's a pretty decent safeguard against half-baked meddling.

My original assumption based on the title was that the author was going to use a randomness machine to assign tasks to himself. Because usually procrastination isn't about not wanting to do something, but just getting over that initial hurdle.

That is a good point. I realise the title is misleading.

I had the same thought, but the opposite strategy of randomizing the break rewards is actually pretty interesting.

I have done that at times, when nothing is particularly compelling but I have a lot of potential things I could work on. I would come up with a list of 20 things and include possibly some fun activities that aren't necessarily productive. Assign a number to each and roll a 20 sided die. It usually worked pretty well, especially if a focused on actions that I could actually do or next actions in GTD terminology. Maybe not the best productivity hack but a good way to break an impasse of being overwhelmed by too many things to do.

I'd like to see a followup after 6 months or so. Are you still using the method, and is it still having a noticeable affect on your productivity and well-being?

This. Always see so many "I've been doing X lately and I'm so productive!"

How long you been doing it?

"Oh, about 2 weeks"

I'm guilty of the same thing. We probably all are. But it makes me all this stuff with a sceptical eye.

I created a Notion doc (instead of in my huge Evernote notebook, and right after abandoning workflowy and right before I discovered Roam...) to list out all the productivity methods I’ve tried and ones I have yet to try. After several hours, I had listed dozens and dozens of tactics I’ve tried with specific examples of how I used them. I had not been faithful to any of them for longer than six months.

This stresses me out. Is there something wrong with me? Do I have some problem with my “internal authority”? Maybe bucking it so many times and so often is contributing to its influence on me...

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with you -- many of us are in the same boat. It's a problem you can make progress on, not an inescapable curse.

When you're addicted to novelty, mechanical approaches like pomodoro or the one described in this post aren't good long-term solutions. I would suggest checking out more mindfulness-based approaches.

Here's my current recipe:

1. Notice when I feel the pull of a distraction. 2. Stop what I'm doing. Literally stop everything for as long as I need to clear my mind. This usually takes about 15 seconds, but sometimes it takes more like 10 minutes. This part is really hard -- when I started doing it, I would feel guilty for "wasting time", even though getting distracted often meant 20 minutes, an hour, or even more completely wasted, and in the worst, most guilt-inducing way. 3. Once my mind is clear, ask myself this question: "What do I truly _want_ to do with this moment of my life?" 4. Do that thing.

If I want to cruise Reddit for half an hour, I'll cruise Reddit for half an hour, and feel good about it. If I want to go back to my original task -- that's great. If I want to call up my dad and see how he's doing, or write a nice note to my wife, that's even better.

Never do anything you don't want to do. It's the _guilt_ that's unhealthy and addicting. Do what you _want_ to do -- and that doesn't have to look like being a programmer/working prodigy all the time.

I regularly fail at this, but over the past year, I've gotten better. And I promise you can, too.

Learn to be happy, and you'll be more productive :)

Thank you for your thoughts! This is very insightful.

The only productivity hack that ever worked for me on a multi-year basis was just to do what is intensely interesting to me. Everything else will fall by the wayside sooner or later. There has been no magic in finding those things either. It has been luck of the draw. Though they're usually challenging and provide near endless amounts of novelty for years on end. Once the novelty or challenge wears off the spell is broken.

Good point. I've recently gone from "management techniques" to cryptocurrency trading, to systems thinking, and so on.

It's a good point that a lot of the things that catch me have some promise of making me more powerful (intellectually, materially, socially, etc.) and along that path it is an intense ride of novelty. Besides constant novelty, have you noticed any other similarities amongst the areas that hook you?

>Besides constant novelty, have you noticed any other similarities amongst the areas that hook you?

They're difficult. Challenging.

Unfortunately there's only a 50/50 chance he'll follow up.

Slight offtopic: The web site's GDPR notice is worth a read. It caught my attention by actually having an equally-sized decline button, which is sadly so rare that it stands out. (TL;DR: They make clear that it's your choice and that they use analytics with privacy-friendly settings to make the site better for readers.)

And it's incredible what an effect such a small gesture of respect has. On any other site I'd have CTRL-W'd such a long-winded explanation much earlier.

The TL;DR of the article - Adding randomized rewards to the Pomodoro technique by randomizing what fun/distrating thing you'll do during your break, later mixing in other "healthy" activities in with the "fun" stuff.

I was really impressed by that notice. A clear decline button, an explanation of the cookie, that was awesome.

I intend to use that clear, concise language, normal sized fonts, button size, button colors to correlate with effects of the action, and humility in my future projects. Oh dear, I am thinking of copying all of it! I hope they don't send lawyers after me :)

That all made me click the "Accept" button rather than "Decline" which I usually do when given a choice.

Loved that the very first sentence gave the reader the choice to decline. Perhaps that made me read the rest of it, or maybe I was already biased (unlikely, but possible) based on the comment here I had read in its praise.

I use the same method to force myself to do exercises.

I do standing desk coding for 1 pomodoro, then exercises (alternating pushups, squats, wall sits, mountain climbers, jumping jacks) during the 4 of the 5min breaks. This way I can intermittently break a sweat and find time to exercise during the day.

Much like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QqoSyqckqA but spread across working hours.

> " …here’s the method I am using at the moment with great success. You need a random-number generator to work it."

http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2014/1/22/random-tim...

I think he got distracted while typing 'Indesctractible' in the first sentence, and procrastinated instead of proof reading...

Thanks :)

I need to make the breaks more structured than that. I find meditating during the breaks is helpful to keep me on course, and also improves my attitude during the work.

This sounds really cool. The other thing I would like is more sound effects on real life goals. I play Overwatch, and I always say I wish the stuff I want to be doing would make that sweet headshot ding.

Patch in a bell into AFL for everytime it finds a crash. Maybe even a generic function I can throw at the end of main so when my code builds and runs I'll get that audio stimulation.

You should try Stretchly. Its a desktop application that forces you to work with the Pomodoro routine. It can get really annoying when you are coding and want to finish that last bit of code but otherwise I liked it.

I don't know how effective this will be but you sound exactly like me, so I have to try this.

Randotron, stop the procrastination!

You s.o.a.b., I'm in.

I’m in, I’m out. Who’s kidneys are these?

At first, I thought Nir Eyal is a partial anagram/pseudonym of Dan Ariely.

Both are unmistakably Israeli names.

This could be an app.

What does it mean when I pull out "Muhammad hands you a salmon football helmet" out of my machine?

No, I don't think it can (completely).

If you procrastinate, you lack discipline. No technology can change or give you discipline. You have to work on it and you can't let yourself say no, it's a mindset.

Procrastination can be caused by any number of things separate from a lack of discipline. It can be a subconscious signal that we doubt the importance of a task. It can be a signal that we unconsciously know we aren't prepared for a task. Maybe it's a strategy to wait until the last possible moment so we have the best possible information and maybe even find an alternative task that is better.

I don't believe "discipline" is a useful concept for everyone. We all have different brains and different circumstances. Some are motivated by discipline and duty, others by novelty and randomness. To an extent most of us can exert our will to build more of one side or the other, but it's much more efficient to exploit our supposed weaknesses at the same time as we build our strengths.

I feel like I've seen examples of the "discipline" crowd and let's call it the "gamification" crowd preaching their one true way, so it's clear that both seem to work for some people, and maybe we can all try to apply some of each to solving problems of motivation and procrastination. But speaking for myself, discipline is rarely the tool that works for me, and it's just that after some amount of waiting I suddenly feel ready to take on whatever it was I was delaying. I think that some kind of randomness might actually help if I can summon the discipline to do just one thing if I don't yet know what it is (I haven't read the article yet so I don't know if what they describe is similar to what I've been noodling on the back burner of ideas).

Everybody has limited discipline. The trick is to not need discipline. By making work more fun, perhaps. And this sounds like a bit of fun.

A better way is to only do what you actually, really want to be doing, but

- most of us don't always have that luxury

- often we would like to have something done while not really wanting to do

- fear of failure, fear of success etc can make us procrastinate even on things we actually want to do.

Side note: If you chronically procrastinate, and have your whole life, you probably lack dopamine.

Which implies they likely have ADHD (or similar) and require medication, right?

Or complex multi-level coping strategies. Whatever works.

> No technology can change or give you discipline.

If you don't believe that the shape of technology can change people's behavior....

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/10/24/user-interface-des...

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As someone whose entire profession is meticulously-crafting metaphors to enable organizations to better interpret and act on information, I think discipline itself is a thing you craft. Discipline is a mental techne. You can design what ideas and habits you want to try to plant in your brain.

   Your mind is a garden of your own
   to terrace and irrigate,
   to plant and to graft,
   to water and weed and repair,
   -- and yes, to artificially fertilize if needed --
   so that whatever the weather,
   out of your impulses
   will grow the actions which bear fruit
   according to what you truly value.

Every push-up and pomodoro is weeding the garden.

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