Hacker News Reader

Comment by asjw | Hacker News Reader

That's a completely fair question.

I'm a senior developer who works on distributed systems for one of the largest Italian private held financial institutions.

To be completely honest I know almost nothing about finance, I just know how to make reliable software for them.

I've been there for almost 4 years now, I started as a contractor but they offered a substantial yearly bonus to the base salary so I accepted the hiring proposal.

Before that I've been an independent contractor for more than a decade and at the end I was making a bit less but not far from that. I mainly worked for overseas companies remotely (a few times I went over there for short periods - weeks or a couple of months) or in agencies here in Italy that worked for the fashion industry.

Must say it all changed when I moved to Milan, I could dream this kind of salary in my birth city (Rome)

View on HN

Are the 100k before or after taxes and social security? That's quite impressive for an employee position in Italy, good for you!

If you can say, how would you judge the competency of the developers working for your company? From time to time I interact as an external contractor with developers from banks/insurances et similar and the average level of their IT has seemed quite lackluster to me.

In general I think sofware development in Italy suffers from a low-balling syndrome. Developers are not held in high esteem and are not paid much, so developer positions do not attract many capable and ambitious people - most either move to management positions as soon as possible, start contracting or move abroad.

Before taxes.

I think developers in Europe in general sell themselves short, they feel like outcasts who have to go through suffering for having a better job than the average. I used to be like that, I would accept lower rates to not feel obligated to wear a suit and a tie.

Now I don't care anymore, still don't wear ties at work, I show up late in the morning (not a morning person, sorry!) but charge what I think is the right amount.

Hi, I'm Italian too working in Milan, just wondering if you have any suggestions on how to get these kind of offers, i imagine they don't appear on public places like linkedin.

if you don't mind we can talk about it via email.

> i imagine they don't appear on public places like linkedin

Can they do that? Just hire through a small network of people in the know? Sounds like a recipe for cronyism.

I'm not sure about Italy but in the UK companies legally have to advertise a job publicly and, if they receive an application that meets the criteria, I think they have to at least consider it, if not conduct an interview. That's not to say there is no nepotism, but there are measures to control it.

There is no legal requirement in the UK to advertise a job publicly in general, and no legal hindrance to explicit nepotism for that matter.

However there is a requirement not to discriminate on the basis of certain characteristics, and the easiest way of protecting against such claims is to advertise publicly.

But a huge number of jobs in the UK are never publicly advertised anyway.

Don't know Italy, but two things stands out above:

Getting in via contracting, and financial services.

Financial services tends to often have salaries significantly above the average for developers, and having gone the same route of contracting first myself it has some definite advantages:

- You establish your value on charging a high day rate that is entirely within the norm as a contractor but usually well above the pay for a permanent employee of similar seniority.

- The company knows you when you negotiate the permanent contract, so you represent a lower hiring risk.

- It's easier to appear as if you have options. E.g. when I went full time permanent, I had been on a part time contract, and I could point out that I had realistic expectations of booking a very significant amount of income over the following year from clients already mostly lined up, so to go permanent I made it clear the offer needed to justify to me why I should give that up.

This route is tougher and more uncertain, and frankly I wouldn't recommend it unless you're happy contracting as there's no guarantee you'll find a contract where they'll want to hire you.

Hello fellow Meneghino!

The usual advices apply here:

- you solve problems, sell yourself as that. It's okay to fill a résumé with technical skills, but also add something that tells potential clients/employers what you really do (developer is ok, experienced frontend designer/iOS developer is better) and what they can use you for. Sell your experience(s)

- if you're above junior (you are confident with at least one major technology) start charging at least 200-250 a day. Charge more if the rate is hourly. It is honest to ask at least for that. You usually will work 200-220 days/year so don't multiply your rates for 365 or you will be disappointed at the end of the year.

- remember that if you are doing contract jobs you are in charge of your taxes and retirement savings, so account for that in your rates. It's easy to dismiss a rate as "too high" until you start factoring in the expenses.

- if you find offsite jobs (you are sent to the client's office) add to your rates travel expenses and hotels/relocation if you have to move. Don't take jobs that won't accept it or will try to pay you a little more. You are payed for your job, they should cover any extra. Including lunches/dinners out. They are probably asking at least 2x to the client of what they are paying you.

- hire an accountant, they can save you thousands euros/year. It's worth the cost.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com