Hacker News Reader

Comment by cryptos | Hacker News Reader

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then?

The longer I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that you have to hammer the new layout into your head, since there are many situations, like the keyboard of a colleague, where the physical layout wouldn't match. But again: how to learn it efficiently without a lot of frustrating typing errors?

The best would be some kind of official standard and the introduction of a new layout in schools.

View on HN

I learnt Dvorak 6 years ago and now type exclusively in Dvorak on QWERTY keyboards (currently a Microsoft Ergonomic). I have never used a keyboard with a Dvorak printed key layout. I think my Dvorak typing speed is still slightly slower than my old QWERTY max, but it feels much more comfortable typing for long periods, and less effortful.

The printed keys don't mean much - to learn to touch type correctly you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway. I used a few typing games to start and then switched cold turkey for a few activities that didn't require speed (like responding to emails). It was, indeed, very frustrating.

That said, I don't recommend switching for most people, because you will get much worse at QWERTY and when you occasionally need to type it (like on a colleague's keyboard) you will appear incompetent; you will ruin your muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts; and, because standard Dvorak is not great for programming IMO due to the position of the [{ and }] keys. But now I'm in too deep, and I know from experience how hard it is to switch so I don't want to switch back!

I switched to Dovorak maybe more than 15 years ago. But I found it put too much load an the pinky fingers (which already are pretty loaded doing enter, backspace, shift). Also typing german is very awkward with Dvorak.

I then switched to NEO layout [1] which is optimized for german, programming and english. I never regretted that. For programming, NEO is superb. It gives you 3 different shift keys (each present two times on both halves of the keyboard) thereby allowing a lot of punctuation and other special keys being typed blindly without much moving of the hand.

Switching back to occasionally work on a qwerty keyboard was impossible at first. But eventually I got used to that and I can now go forth and back and adjust within minutes. Though qwerty typing speed and accuracy is much lower than my NEO speed and using qwerty generally feels frustrating.

[1] https://www.neo-layout.org/

Touchtyping means you should never look at the keyboard - you rely on your muscle memory and relative positioning (starting from those little ridges on two characters in the middle of the keyboard) to hit the right key. As anything related to muscle memory, like learning an instrument or playing ball, it’s all about practice.

If you decide to try a new layout, print an image of it and keep it in front of you, then load some typing tutor program (some web-based ones: keybr, keyzen, ratatype, but there are desktop ones too which typically work better than browser-based ones, because those struggle to correctly detect the actual layout) and start practicing. After a few hours, you can try your hand at something fun like Typeracer, and then it should be downhill from there.

You’ll likely have to spend a few weeks doing an hour or so of daily practice, tolerating a lower rate of typing and a higher rate of mistakes (which is the most frustrating part - try to go for precision, even if it means being slower, it will work better in the long run).

I would recommend starting over a weekend and giving it at least 4h per day, so on Monday you should be good enough to resist the inevitable pressure to switch back. I started mid-week a few times, in the evening, and it was a mistake - without significant practice, the temptation to roll back to be productive is too high.

This is my experience anyway. Spurred by a bout of wrist pain, I switched to a Kinesis Freestyle about 5 years ago, and then to Colemak a year later. I never looked back, this combination took away my wrist pain for good. I can still occasionally use qwerty without cursing too much, but the impact on my wrists is definitely noticeable compared to Colemak. Same for going back to laptop keyboards, particularly post-2016 Apple ones (admittedly I've not tried the very latest one).

> Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically?

Imo, that's a terrible idea. It just encourages the bad habit of looking at the keyboard. Learn to touch type, memorize the layout.

> But again: how to learn it efficiently without a lot of frustrating typing errors?

I don't think there's any way to avoid frustrating typing errors (except patience), but there are programs for training touch typing. Pick a weekend (or longer holiday), switch your layout, put a cheatsheet on the screen or print one out[1], start hammering your favorite touch typing program. Don't switch back to your original layout! The temptation to go back is huge since typing is so slow and frustrating at first. Just don't.

[1] A cheatsheet that is not literally on your keycaps is much harder to "cheat" with. Which means you can throw it away in a day or two because it'll no longer be useful; recalling the layout from memory will be faster.

My 2 cents:

You can actually reshuffle keys on many notebooks keyboards. And / or use stickers on the left over keys. They don’t look great, but I prefer layout over look :)

Using a blank keyboard was a good forcing device to get better at touch typing. I sanded out a spare thinkpad keyboard. Cheap, effective.

You need to practice. It can be an enjoyable activity, like running or working out. Rewiring your habits is actually easier if you enjoy the process. It takes time though.

I have no issue working with other layouts, may it be another person computer (which if rare) or a mobile device, which don’t support Dvorak ootb. Our brains are great.

> do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key?

Yes.

> how do you _learn_ the layout then?

Using an image of the new layout, and by doing drills. If you care about touch typing, you're training to type without looking at the keyboard anyway.

This is how I learned to touch type on Dvorak years ago. I had never learned to touch type on QWERTY before, and I still can't. But then again, I typically don't type on other people's computers and when I do, I look at the keys.

I've pulled keycaps - I lost use of my left arm for half a year about 20 years ago, so I switched to one of the single handled layouts that is available out of the box on windows, I switched the key caps on an old IBM PS/2 keyboard (amazing, metal body, mechanical). This has the obvious advantages, and only takes 20 minutes or so, but when I've used other layouts more recently, I've just used blank keycaps, it breaks the habit of looking at the keys

I learned at keybr.com, which shows the layout on the screen. Then, once you are properly touch-typing, it doesn't matter what's printed on the key caps. (And thankfully, Workman doesn't move the symbols around, so you can still cheat there :D)

for average keyboards you don't rearrange keys, they are shaped a certain way that would make weird ridges. either ignore keycapa or print / buy stickers of other layouts is easiest

Reply on news.ycombinator.com