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Comment by anonymousiam | Hacker News Reader

They are lying. I was in the market for a new car earlier this year, and I really wanted to get a Tesla. I also really wanted a car that could handle a trip of 295 miles that I regularly make. I will not go into the nightmare that was scheduling a test drive of the long-range Model S, but after getting conflicting answers from multiple PoCs at Tesla, I finally got the firm answer. The car cannot do even my 295 mile commute (either way) without recharging once. I gave up and bought something else, but I did reserve a "Cyber Truck" which they claim will have a 500 mile range.

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I’ve driven 30k miles in my Model S (pre Raven 330 mile range 100kw dual motor) since 2018, back and forth across the US (West coast, East coast, Deep South and the Midwest), using the Supercharger network. Would stopping for a 20 minute charge on a 300 mile road trip really be a deal breaker? I find it to be just the right amount of time to hit the bathroom, grab a Monster energy drink or a coffee, and to walk a little bit to keep away the DVT. 40-50 minute range charges to 100% are rare, and I’ll time those to be when we’re leaving someplace we charged overnight (hotel with destination chargers) or at a Supercharger where I can combine the stop with a meal.

It is a deal breaker for me. I don't want to spend an extra hour detouring to the charging station, possibly waiting in line, and then getting only enough of a charge to complete my journey. I would rather do all of my charging in one of my garages.

Charge to 95% from home so you'd only have to stop for a few minutes. That is highly recommended for your safety anyway.

My point is that with a 100% charge from driveway to driveway, My 295 mile trip would still require a stop for a 20 minute charge (not counting all of the logistics associated with that). As posted elsewhere in this thread, http://www.tesla.com/trips is still reporting the exact same numbers it was in January when I gave up and bought my new car.

It's quite possible tesla.com/trips haven't updated yet.

The article says they've been building these at the Fremont factory since January.

If you look at the range of the vehicles on the /trips page, the Long Range plus version (~400 miles) has not been included.

Even though it doesn’t matter now for your personal needs, it’s likely the newest Model S Long Range Plus could meet your 295 mile “one way without a charge” commute requirement, with a comfortable margin for unexpected or excess consumption.

That's the same sort of language I kept getting from Tesla when I wanted to know for certain that the car would satisfy my needs. I was not going to drop $100k on their car unless they could say what you said with a little more certainty.

6 minutes should be enough: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=74209e16-8452-461...

For a 4h30 trip, that seems reasonable don't you think?

Tesla recommends stopping for a 20 minute charge.

Consumer Reports was able to get 355 miles in the Model S Long Range at 65mph. They were able to get 418 miles at 55mph. I would expect the Long Range Plus to be about 10% better based on all of the CR data.

I am not sure where you got that information from Tesla but I trust that CR wasn’t just making shit up.

Tesla directed me to their trip planning application: https://www.tesla.com/trips. I just ran it again with the "Model S Long Range" selected, and my 295 mile trip requires a 20 minute charge in Baker, CA.

Their trip planner recommends a charge in the middle for almost any trip greater than 200 miles. I am not sure why.

It also could just be a fairly hilly drive or a drive with a high speed limit. Either way it’s pretty unfair to say Tesla is outright lying because the stated range isn’t applicable to every possible stretch of road in the world.

You don’t want to drain to 0 anyway. To make a 295 mile round trip without a charge I would want a weighted range of 400-450 miles.

Looking forward to the CyberTruck! Hopefully they'll be able to meet their announced specifications. Unfortunately I may not have enough garage space, and I'm torn over which vehicle to get rid of. Definitely not my new AMG.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com is better in every aspect.

The thing is, distance is meaningless. The energy needed to travel for A to B depends on way more than the "distance". Elevation changes, weather, wind, driving style, etc all matter. I can show you roads near me where my energy consumption is negative (yes, driving down the mountain).

Wouldn't the regenerative braking system recharge the batteries on the down slopes? I realize it's probably not 100% efficient, but if the system were reasonably efficient, it shouldn't matter how hilly or flat the trip could be.

I've heard numbers quoted that it's only about 50% efficient, and it would only capture the potential energy from the weight of the car. You still lose a very significant amount of energy overcoming air/rolling resistance.

You mean, if the starting and ending elevation is the same the hills shouldn't matter? That's not the case. AFAIK, in any vehicle (even in space) the efficiency goes down with increased acceleration. Going up a hill is accelerating more (counteracting gravity) and downhill is a negative acceleration, so you end up loosing twice.

Ken in a sibling comment claims "50%" which begs the question "compared to what". We'll never be able to reclaim _all_ the energy, but the energy that gets to the wheel is stored back in the battery at 80+% efficiency. Most of the losses are in wind resistance and friction.

The BMW i3 has had the perfect electric car design for the last 7+ years - a battery pack good for ~50-120 miles (increased with model revisions) and a gasoline generator "range extender" with a small tank for indefinite length journeys hopping between standard gas stations - which are abundant.

It improves on hybrid-car designs: the engine isn't connected to the drive train, so it's a lot less complex, and the engine is not as large because it doesn't need to power the entire car for 100k+ miles and it can use the battery for short bursts of power (acceleration, hill climbs) while charging on flats and downhills. As it's smaller and less heavily used, it only needs servicing every two years.

Given the top concerns about electric cars are range anxiety, charging time, and availability of charging points, and this design addresses all of them, why don't more electric car makers offer something like this?

I really liked the i7, and I would have liked to stay with the BMW brand, but the poor thing had a 100 mile range. It certainly looked good, but it was even less practical than what I had.

I assume you mean the i8? A quick Google says it never had a range extender option. The i3 is very much not a competitor on performance, it's a city runabout - the earlier/USA models had complaints (and a lawsuit) that the generator was not strong enough even for that use, although Europe/more recent models don't seem to have the same complaints. Maybe the range extender concept couldn't apply to a more performance oriented car without an impractically big/heavy generator?

Yes, sorry. i8 is what I meant. Very sporty looking, and nice to drive.

Range axienty disappears as you get familiar with driving an EV with trip planning. Charging time is already short enough with version 3 of Tesla Superchargers. Availability of charging points isn't an issue when you charge at home/work. Hybrids are just adding complexity, cost and air pollution.

> Range axienty disappears as you get familiar with driving an EV with trip planning.

It's true, but in some parts of the world (e.g. eastern Europe) it has been replaced with "what charging cards or apps do I need" anxiety.

> why don't more electric car makers offer something like this?

Because nobody is buying it. Even BMW retired the rex version because it was not popular enough.

The simple explanation is that many better plug-in hybrid cars are available for those who want such a thing, many of them at a better price, with more space.

No one lies about EPA range.

What you didn't include are the details of your commute and why it might be atypical.

LA to Vegas.

That’s the reason, right there. There are three very long and steep grades on that trip, which suck down range considerably.

I do have to say, the Superchargers along that route are located about 45 seconds off of the highway, and are almost never full. You’d have your choice of places to stop. But if never making even a brief stop is your requirement, then you have your answer.

Government range and emissions tests can be gamed. As VW, and Tesla.

295 mi commute? how many days a week is that monster?

Less than twice a month.

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