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scarface74

Why is it ridiculous? Who wants an app that you can’t do anything with when you download it?

Even Office for iOS lets you view documents without paying and then you need a subscription to edit them.

Name one retailer that lets you hock your product in their store without paying anything?

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> Name one retailer that lets you hock your product in their store without paying anything?

I realize that Apple brands it as a store, but analogies to other "stores" don't really make sense. 90% of apps are free[1], so you could similarly ask "name one retailer who gives away 90% of their products for free".

To me, the App "Store" is part of the product you get when you buy an iPhone. When free apps are distributed through it, they aren't getting "free" placement, you (the iPhone customer) are getting the service you paid for when you bought the phone.

[1] https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-statistics/

Is this an argument against the rules? Apple in that case is more lenient than most other retailers.

> 90% of apps are free

Is that free free or free up front with recurring revenue because your engagement is profitable for them via advertising or in-app purchases or both? Because those are not the same.

> Name one retailer lets you hock your product in their store without paying anything?

Apple. Google. Microsoft. Samsung.

> Who wants an app that you can’t do anything with when you download it?

People who want a client for their email service?

Hell, fastmail is even an email app, that has no in app purchases, and doesn't work without an account. (and is in the app store)

If you make money. They want to make money. Can I use all of BaseCamp features for free?

I don't think you can use any of basecamp features for free. [1]

They make money, that is not up for debate.

(and yes, I know, their platform, their rules, etc etc, but nothing about that says people cannot fight it, and make it politically difficult to let them bleed money from people for a very basic service.)

1 - I have never used basecamp, or looked into it, so YMMV

You can use any app that integrates with Basecamp without paying a cent to Basecamp for the integration itself. You can even browse a list of integrations hosted by Basecamp. https://basecamp.com/extras

Basecamp isn't free, but neither is an actual IPhone. In the case of the tools that are enabled on their platform, Basecamp's library doesn't require paying basecamp, and Apple's does.

And neither is my computer or internet connection. But that doesn’t mean I expect BaseCamp to be free. Can I distribute my games on any of the console manufacturers system for free?

And before someone responds that you can buy physical games for consoles, they still have to pay the console manufacturer for each physical game sold and the console manufacturers have to approve it.

Can I use BaseCamp’s APIs for free and create my own app? In fact, BaseCamp just announced that they will not allow third parties to integrate with their software that use their platform to track employees.

FastMail is adding IAP to their app. They stated that Apple has asked them to, and that it was on their long-term roadmap.

https://twitter.com/Fastmail/status/1273800222989324288?s=20

Netflix's app (among plenty of others) doesn't work unless you're already subscribed

And they also are “reader apps”. They offer view only functionality for content. That exception applies to all sorts of apps no one ever heard of that force you to subscribe outside of the App Store.

As mentioned elsewhere, you could take FastMail if you want an email specific example

It’s rumored that Fastmail’s next update won’t be approved. That’s when they usually throw down the hammer.

FastMail had an update 2 days ago

And they also have to start charging IAP.

https://youdownloadtheappanditdoesntwork.com/

Apparently FastMail has to pay IAP fees "as of June 19, 2020", according to https://youdownloadtheappanditdoesntwork.com/.

The reason the app didn't work when you downloaded it is because of Apple's own policies.

Also: https://youdownloadtheappanditdoesntwork.com

And BaseCamp was free to offer in app purchases at a 43% markup to make up for the 30% cut. BaseCamp is not a non profit anymore than Apple is.

Can you?

I am pretty sure that the rules about IAP make it very clear you have to charge the same price on and off the app store.

No it doesn’t. In fact, when Spotify was still allowing in app purchases, they did exactly this.

https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/8/8913105/spotify-apple-app-...

That was Apple's initial attempt, but the pushback was fast and furious. Spotify, especially, led the charge that this was ridiculous and Apple relented pretty quickly, IIRC. Now you can charge more to cover their 30%.

OK, that's probably what I remember then

>Who wants an app that you can’t do anything with when you download it?

Apple has accepted plenty of those into the App Store before. Maybe you can't expect every application on the App Store to work after downloading. I don't own a Tesla, so why should I expect the Tesla app to do anything for me?

There has always been a distinction in the App Store between an app that is used to purchase physical goods or ties in with physical goods than those that are used exclusively for digital goods. You can use the Amazon app to buy goods within Amazon’s store. But you can’t use it to buy Kindle books.

> Name one retailer that lets you hock your product in their store without paying anything?

This is a bad take. Hey is a subscription service. If you buy a magazine from a newsagent and then sign up to a subscription from it, the newsagent doesn't get to claim 30% of the subscription fee.

You do however pay the retailer something. Also, the physical retailer doesn’t provide you in further infrastructure - automatic updates, notification support, a printing press to help you create your magazine (ie developer tools), etc.

The analogy falls down because stores generally don't benefit a great deal from having products in their store except insofar as the money they make for the store, or occasionally the money they'll make by consumers buying other products in the store (in the case of loss leaders).

The iOS app store could be 100% free apps, or even 100% apps that Apple doesn't get a cent of, and Apple still benefits from those apps existing.

So now Apple should operate the App Store as a loss leader? The console makers also benefit from games because it makes their consoles more valuable. Roku benefits from apps being available. Are any of those free?

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