Ask HN: Startup Salaries in Europe | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Startup Salaries in Europe

19 pointstsamtsam39 comments

Are there legitimate, credible sources that aggregate startup salaries in European tech hubs? Or is anyone willing to share about this?

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Living in Berlin, various StartUp experiences.

2013: 34k (junior Frontend)

2014: 40k (Fullstack JS)

2015: 50k (Frontend)

2016: 60k (Frontend)

Went freelancing after this...

2020: 85k offer for Senior Software Engineer

All numbers are from StartUps. You have to know however that you probably won't find a unicorn in Europe just yet. It's not the same mentality as in the US.

I currently work for a US company with a European location, and it differs quite a lot.

30+ days holidays + country wide holidays 38h work week Free day care where I live

I checked and I would have to earn around 140k in New York or 280k in San Francisco to have the "same" quality of life as 85k in Berlin buys me. However, in Berlin I have additional benefits like the ones mentioned above. I pay around 1100 Euros for a 110qm apartment "downtown" and have no car.

Thank you for this! Are the salaries from 2013-2016 from the same startup or mutiple ones?

Multiple StartUps. I switched jobs every 6-12 months and got a nice salary bump along the way.

I don't know how the situation is at the moment with COVID though.

Any particular reason for switching every 6-12 months and is that common practice? Trying to get a sensing here.

Just me :)

First StartUp was amazing, super professional people. Run out of money and laid people off (StartUp still lives and grows now)

Second StartUp was led by mid-twenty Bros and not the culture I wanted to be part of.

Third StartUp led by people bought in by a bigger corporation. Had no idea how to run a company. Best team I have ever worked in but worst business I ever worked in as well. Almost everyone left after being there for 6 months.

Fourth StartUp ad tech industry. Learned a great deal, solid co-workers, but had enough of "We are a cool StartUp" vibe and went freelancing.

General speaking, I don't dislike StartUps, but oh boy I am too old for this now (35 years old).

That's still quite the journey! And you must like Berlin enough to working there, I suppose. How's the tech scene there like?

>I pay around 1100 Euros for a 110qm apartment "downtown" and have no car.

That is incredibly cheap, which neighbourhood is it if I may ask? I live in Munich (well outside of Munich a bit but work in Munich) and trying to relocate with rents being very expensive. I can get a 1 room apartment (30ish square meters maybe) in a decent block for that money you pay in Berlin.

I lucked out a bit. It's somewhere in the West, I got the apartment for 1600 Euro/month but then went to the lawyer and looked and the rent prices around me. My landlord then had to reduce rent.

It's kinda hard right now to find apartment with good quality/price ratio. But yeah, Berlin is still much cheaper then Munich if you look for family-sized apartments.

You can do something similar in the Netherlands, but it results in a very sour relationship with your landlord. They probably won't ever fix anything and it has led to intimidation and worse occassionally.

Mind to share the company? I can count in one hand companies in Berlin paying more than 80k/year for senior devs. Even for well-seasoned companies, maybe only team leads get paid that much, and for many companies, not even.

Contentful, GetYourGuide, N26 to name a few pay similar salaries for mid-level engineers. most other companies don't though.

There is a spreadsheet for France (in French). It's quite Paris-centric, but it gives an idea. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zjvz-Ud2TR3rco2BTq0X...

Wow! Back end developper avance < 50K euros on average. That is not much. I am genuinely surprised.

A good rule of thumb (although it's difficult to summarize the salaries of all the countries in Europe) is: Juniors up to 30K. Mediors up to 50K. Seniors up to 80K.

This is for software engineers.

At least in Germany they are higher. A friend who is still in college got an offer as a new grad for ~75k. This offer is probably in the top 10% though. I don't know a single friend from college who starts with less than 45k as a new grad. Those who get 45k usually don't have internship experience.

In Italy a senior dev would often get less than half of that (pretax). Basically just in Milan salary are higher but a junior would not get more than 30k

What does that look like post tax?

Is it livable?

30k is around 1700euros/month after tax. Sounds like a little but it is already 200euros/month over the average salary in Italy and this is for a junior position (even if I have to admit I saw often 26000-28000 euro as a common pre-tax salary for juniors outside Milan)

For comparison for a two rooms apartment in a city (again, except for Milan) you usually pay around 400-700e so it is livable and you can save enough money month over month. If you are a couple with both around the same pay you can live quite well and with a senior role (typically you get 38k = 2100 euros/month but I see some good companies offer 45k = 2450euros/month) you really have no problems at all and can save a lot + buy a 3 or 4 rooms apartment easily.

Then Milan is an exception. There as a senior you can get quite easily 65k = 3400 euro/month to 85k but the cost of life is London-level and rents are absurdly high in any part of the city, so much that mostly you want to live outside of it and just commute via trains.

Spain is similar. 30k max for junior dev. Getting above 50-60k means you're either a hero, or Batman own son.

That offer (75K) is definitely not the norm for a new grad. It can happen, sure, but I think it's more productive to discuss salaries 90% of the software engineers in this forum can get/expect.

Also, 75k as a new grad is even more unlikely in a startup. This salary as a new grad might happen if you apply for a job at Microsoft in Düsseldorf or Salesforce in Munich, but it’s definitely not the norm even for large companies.

I’ve always been under the impression your taxes are also very high, so what does your actual take home salary look like?

Context matters. You take home more than just money. In most of Europe you take home free, or nearly free, health care, education and so on. In the USA you take home a strong military. And that's before we consider local cost of living.

Comparing take-home £ in isolation is almost meaningless - it doesn't equate to disposable income after expenses - or what that disposable income can buy.

IOW making 200k in SF is less than say 50K in Milan. (numbers made up)

This is not exactly correct but almost. I Europe expect around 40% percent of your gross salary to be gone in taxes. Health insurance is not 100% free (e.g., you go to the doctor and he prescribes you some pills. You have to pay for those pills yourself. Sure the doctor doesn't charge you for the hour). Education is not 100% free. For example, in Germany it would cost you around 400 Euro per semester to get enrolled in a public University).

So, for everybody to know: a salary of, let's say, 70K in Germany for a single person (tax group 1) living in the west would translate to around 3300 euros per month after taxes.

cunningly I covered myself by saying "most of" and "nearly" :)

You are correct, it's "free" only for a loose definition of "free" - but I think the point (when compared to say US health and education) stands...

    > Health insurance is not 100% free (e.g., you go to the
    > doctor and he prescribes you some pills. You have to 
    > pay for those pills yourself. Sure the doctor
    > doesn't charge you for the hour).

Just to be clear, the pills are still often subsidized and very cheap where they are not. It is uncommon to have medical expenses of more than 30€ per visit even for cosmetic concerns.

Also important to note that most of the fee of 300€ per semester of university pays for a public transport ticket which allows you to take busses and trams in the city where your university is located and usually also trains within your Bundesland.

I made about 2x less in Europe than the US in a similar sized startup, this is in product management.

But there were other perks- 35 days minimum vacation (I was required to take those days by law), a very clear work life balance, more relaxed work environment and a better quality of life overall.

I did end up moving back to the US to make 3x more (money is important to me right now), but am planning to return after my wife and I have kids- the quality of life differences are just too great.

I think this is a very good summary. The number on your paycheck is not representative of how good your quality of life is. You can almost never compare salaries 1:1 even in different cities of the same country. It was mentioned on this thread as well, but €60k in rural Germany, €80k in Berlin and €120k in Munich are quite similar in terms of what you get, cost of property/land and stuff. All 3 are basically very much upper middle class in those regions.

I live in Athens, Greece, work for a company that calls itself a startup (but has been around for a decade) and I make ~35k a year.

My general sentiment is that locally that's more than what most startups are paying, but at the same time most startups aren't hiring mid-senior people.

As far as regular tech companies go, it's a good but not great salary.

There is this survey from 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15088840

Answers here: https://goo.gl/X45Dtt

Maybe worth a re-post on HN.

UK, small county with growing tech scene. My personal experience:

Junior - £16-18k

Mid Web Developer - £30k

Very early startup React/Laravel - £28-30k

Senior/Head of Web Development - £30k

Software Developer - ~£42k

Expected future salary - £50k-£60k (~15 years experience)

Reading HN can give you a very unrealistic view of salaries when you look at the UK outside of London.

Happy to give you specific salaries for London, UK. Let me know what roles you're interested in and I'll post numbers.

For context, I've been running talent functions for tech startups in London for about ten years as well as running a number of tech job boards over the years.

I'd be super grateful if you could share numbers for frontend/fullstack roles!

Typical entry level roles start at around £32k.

Senior individual contributor roles (so not factoring in team lead roles) go to as high as £90k but around £70k is more typical of the average senior frontend developer.

How does equity or stock options work in Europe?

Is it as common as the US? What is normal for percentages/allotments?

The problem with options and stock in Europe are Taxes: rules change from one country to another.

As a rule of thumb, usually you'll be taxed for your gross salary (including bonuses) + (value of stock received).

AFAIK in my country (Spain), you'll be also taxed by the value of the options. Some other countries allow you to deduct the option buy cost - if any.

in London

30-45 - junior

45-60 - mid

60-80 - senior

80-95 - principal

95-120 - vp

Those VP numbers aren't quite right. The average for VP is around £160k and go up to around £190k.

All above is what I’ve offered at my startup (Series A) so it’s accurate at least for one business ;) I agree range for management positions options would be much higher for later stage startups, with great bonus and a lot of shares/options

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