Hacker News Reader

Comment by omnifischer | Hacker News Reader

At the end of the day,

1. Apple users are the ones that cannot browse without adblocker. Safari is not as good as ublock-origin

2. Most Apple users use google maps.

> Not a fan of Apple, but they seem to be serious about privacy

If they are honest then they can remove the default search engine from Google to DDG or whatever. They get billions from Google for default search engine.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/1/21310591/apple-google-sear...

BTW, Apple need to release a good search/maps product before complaining.

3. Even the cheapest iPhone cannot be afforded by > 80 % world.

They do not care about >80 % world popln? They too need smartphones.

View on HN

1. Huh? I use ad-blockers on iOS.

2. I don't use Google Maps. People can choose to use Google Maps, sure. So?

2b. I use DDG as my search engine. A default is just a default. Are you suggesting people use Google's Android, where the default is... somehow... not Google?

3. The cheapest brand-new iPhone is $399 from Apple in the US. That's full-price directly from the manufacturer. It is super-easy to pick up second-hand phones for much less than that. I see them for $100 very frequently. People use iPhones in nearly every country of the world, so it seems at least some people can afford them.

Note that your complaints include both that people ignore the default mapping application to use Google's, and that the default search engine is Google's. Seems silly to argue both for and against defaults.

> 2. Most Apple users use google maps.

The stats I've seen don't back this up. Maybe in some countries? Certainly not "Most" overall, and Google doesn't even have a third of iOS users in the US.

> Apple need to release a good search/maps product before complaining.

Duck Duck Go does just fine 99% of the time. Apple Maps likewise in most regions at this point. Google Search has gotten worse over the years as they've chased revenue while its competitors (DDG primarily) have gotten better. Likewise, Apple Maps have improved at a much faster pace over the past few years and closed the gap. Where Apple Maps used to lag quite a bit, they are now extremely close in functionality. A lot of people prefer the Apple Maps interface.

> If they are honest then they can remove the default search engine from Google to DDG or whatever.

While this is a ding against Apple's privacy policy, it isn't a great argument when you consider the worst "Privacy issue" Apple has is the fact that in one place they touch Google by default. If Google is bad for privacy as you suggest here, then by default, having a platform which only touches Google in one easily swappable place is vastly better than a platform that is neck deep in Google's anti-privacy Shit. You can't have it both ways here.

I'm far from representative of all users, but I can't be bothered to use Google Maps anymore. The various integrations that Apple Maps has with Apple Watch and all the improvements it has received over the years makes it just as good if not better than Google Maps for a vast majority of my usage.

You've likely given this far more thought than most people. The majority of people just use what's installed by default and don't ever even look at Google. Defaults are powerful. This is doubly true now that Apple Maps is as good as it's gotten.

Won't use it after it sent my friend to a wrong location and won't use it after it gave me bad coordinates. New iOS will let you change defaults don't remember if it has maps to swap.

I have been using adblockers[1,2] on mobile as well as desktop safari for quite some time now.

1. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027 2. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/quiet-content-blocker/id144152...

Do any of these content blockers work outside of Safari? (I use Firefox on iOS)

WKWebView cannot use any of Safari extensions, unfortunately. I just use DNSCloak connecting to my private VPS instance to do adblocking over DNS which kinda works fine, but leaves out a lot of blank canvas in the page.

Biggest drawback is that DNS based content blocking has no way to apply cosmetic filters.

Ads on platforms that deliver their ads embedded and from their first party domains (think google, facebook, reddit, youtube, instagram, linkedin, amazon, etc.) can not be blocked this way.

The only two places I see ads on my phone (currently using NextDNS, earlier DNSCloak) are Amazon sponsored listings inside the Amazon app, and Twitter sponsored content in Firefox.

SafariViewController can though and that’s what my RSS reader uses.

He's sort of right about the adblocker situation. The content blocker framework is definitely weaker than what ublock has access to on chrome/firefox. It's much closer to the much derided chrome manifest v3.

iPhones have longevity.

The iPhone 5s from September 2013 has been receiving regular security updates, the latest being iOS 12.4.8 on Wednesday.

It was the first 64-bit phone, and first iPhone (first phone?) with a Secure Enclave.

They can be had for <$100 in good condition.

BTW, every one says this - but nobody uses it like a daily driver. Yes, it will work as a spare - with just one app - like whatsapp - but for many poor - they need 1. Uber or Ola 2. Facebook or WhatsApp 3. linkedin to whatever local app 4. youtube

Why dont you try to use it for a week with all your existing apps?

If it works as good - why would anyone buy newer?

My partner used a freshly cleaned 6 for a month due to a cracked screen on their usual phone, and it was perfectly fine.

My iPhone 6 is my daily driver.

You should try using it before telling people it doesn’t work.

None of these apps are essential even in the developed world where anyone who uses Uber regularly can probably afford a newer iPhone, these apps also run just fine on a 5s/6 which can be found for under $150 without much issues.

Literally millions of people use these phones as their "daily driver." They work perfectly well. Maybe people are still using them from when they were new, other people buy them used, or buy the iPhone SE, for exactly the reason you suggest: they don't need the latest and greatest.

Most people don't need the latest and greatest.

I'm still using a 6s Plus 128GB. I keep thinking about getting a new one, but this one still works great. Haven't found a slow app yet. Everything is still responsive. Screen is still scratch free. And it's going to get iOS 14 this year. Even though it was relatively expensive when new, it's probably been one of the best values in tech I've ever seen. And yeah, it's a daily driver. Use it for everything.

iPhones very strictly limit background processing. This isn't a problem whatsoever, Uber doesn't take up 16GB of storage.

I exclusively used a 1st gen SE until a few months ago. All of my dozens of installed apps worked great - and still do in fact.

So do Android devices, I'm using a Samsung SIII from 2012 as 'work phone' when doing rough work on the farm etc. The device runs Android 9 (LineageOS 16), I have not felt the need to update it to 10 yet. It has a user-replaceable battery but since it still lasts for about 2 days of normal use (playing around 8 hours of audio per day) I have not yet replaced it. I did put in a larger microSD card to support a larger off-line audio library. Neither would be possible with the iPhone, no matter which version.

Upgrading your OS is only part of your software security footprint. The unlocked bootloaders/firmware running on many old devices are full of unpatched security holes and are often susceptible to attacks where physical access is available. These security holes are a common method to install third-party ROMs on some devices.

Yes, that is after all what makes it possible to jailbreak nearly all iPhone models using something like Checkra1n.

The vast majority of vulnerabilities used for jailbreaks and for Android unlocks are not attacks on code running in ROM and can be fixed OTA.

Yes, although some can not, the vulnerability which Checkra1n [1] exploits being an example of such. In this case I consider this to be a good thing since it makes it possible to circumvent vendor-imposed restrictions. I like to be the one who gets to decide what runs on my hardware, I see no need to hand off this responsibility to any vendor no matter how virtuous they portray themselves (or are portrayed as such by others).

I really don't understand the fawning over Apple Inc. when it comes to their claims of supporting privacy, I trust them no more nor less than I trust other similar companies. I know I can keep my devices ad-free because I am the one who decides what gets to run and what does not, which software gets network access and which does not, what goes through the firewall and what not. I also know what software gets access to which OS features and what does not. Can this veil of security be circumvented by a serious opponent? Sure, there are likely to be bugs in the software and holes in the veil, no more or less than there are such bugs and holes in other systems. I deem the chance of a serious opponent singling out me and my devices as slim so for now I assume I can use my devices without being mined by the ad-tech industry.

I don't get ads on any of them.

[1] https://cydia-app.com/checkrain/

It doesn’t really need to be a serious opponent. If you randomly drop a phone in a cab, chances are, it will end up in the hands of someone running one of these exploits on it.

Doing network security on-device is antipattern. Doing it at the network layer is easier and more portable. Not only do I block ads on my iPhone, I even run an IDS/IPS on all of the traffic, no exploits or jailbreak required.

Although, if you still prefer to block-ads on device, those solutions also exist for iOS.

> Although, if you still prefer to block-ads on device, those solutions also exist for iOS.

Of course I run content blockers on my devices, this is not 'antipattern' at all. I also run them on the local network into which I, when needed (e.g. when using public wifi) connect through a VPN (used to be OpenVPN, now using Wireguard).

While Apple is slowly opening up the content blocking possibilities I have been doing this for about 9 years now, including egress blocking (using a whitelist, only those programs explicitly allowed are able to transmit data). Android being built on top of the Linux kernel made it possible to use most of the existing tools (iptables etc) more or less right from the start - which for me was with Android "Donut" (1.6) on an HTC Prophet (which was sold with Windows Mobile).

That's cool, but I doubt the people in need of a cheap phone have the wherewithal to install and maintain Lineage.

It more or less maintains itself with OTA updates, just like a stock distribution. The initial (slight) hurdle is installing the thing but once that is done these devices can be maintained by anyone who can maintain a stock Android or iOS distribution.

Eh really? I'm pleased to hear that, I'll try to pick up a used phone for Lineage soon.

The iPhone 4s from 2011 received an update around than a year ago.

Even the cheapest Mercedes Benz car cannot be afforded by > 80% of the world. The cheapest Rolex cannot be afforded by > 99% of the world. They do care about the world population, but they don't have to serve them, even if they have needs. Having needs satisfied is not someone else's obligation.

Smartphone is a necessity. For example, without covid app you cannot go out in many countries. Yes, most people do not need Mercedes- agree.

You can live without mercedes but not without smartphone. Paying for services; employer; calling people; if you swap 3 jobs then you are informed by your boss through WhatsApp or fb (at least in parts of 3rd world - I went through that in the last years).

Of course, there is no obligation for anyone to care about others - let alone mega corporation. Agree to your point.

What about removing Google search from iPhone to demonstrate honesty about privacy?

You are making 3 arguments, all not proven:

1. People cannot live without smartphones. I wonder how the past 10,000 were: how people made phone calls 100 years without smartphones, how they paid with card or cash, how to live without Facebook or WhatsApp. It must be terrible to be so entitled.

2. When people need smartphones, they should afford iPhones. Why a $100 Huawei is not enough?

3. When people have needs, someone is obligated to satisfy it. Oh, that sex maniac across the street ...

Bullet point one: in the past 10 000 years no one had so such info and requirements to be online.

Calling someone is not even on the priority list of a smartphone. But I can't access easily half of services (including banks) without an internet-connected device. Which is almost invariably a smartphone.

Bullet point 2: older versions of iPhones can be had for that money

Being snarky doesn't help to the discussion and it actually goes against the guidelines of this site:

> Be kind. Don't be snarky.

1. You could make the same argument about fridges, electricity, light bulbs, vehicles (yours or by proxy), houses, chairs, agriculture. The point is that not having a smartphone available to you puts you on the margins since at this point it's assumed that everyone has one. Every restaurant in our area is now doing virtual no-touch menus that require scanning a QR code and requiring online ordering for take-out. Like you can live without a smartphone but at this point you're only making life more difficult and annoying for yourself.

2. It's plenty enough. Phones have been plenty fast for years. The issue is finding a vendor that will support your software for long stretches of time which right now that is community Android distributions and Apple.

3. This is a bad-faith argument and you know it.

I don't think he's wrong. Society has expectations and throwing money to buy things works. I don't have Uber and Lyft and that puts me at margins with society. Does that mean they're essential apps? Making life difficult and annoying is just how many people without money live.

In regards to maps...

I would like to actually see number on that. I personally use Apple Maps almost exclusively and don't look back. It does everything I need.

Apple Maps had a very shaky start, but its just fine compared to google maps (with the added benefit of not being a privacy nightmare)

The only complaint I have about Apple Maps so far is that it uses Yelp for review information and photos. I wouldn't mind Yelp, except they try to force you to install their app so they can spy on you instead of just letting you view a mobile site. I'm sure their crappy app is just a wrapper around a mobile site anyway, so it's doubly frustrating

Sent my friend to a wrong location as recently as a year ago. Won't chance that again. This is in Chicago not corn field in middle of nowhere.

> They do not care about >80 % world popln? They too need smartphones.

nobody needs a smartphone. It's a gadget.

You seem to be implying it's a frivolous luxury that delivers little real value. That's not the case.

Much has been written on telephony in the developing world.

Telephony can be handled by dumb phones

A smartphone is far more capable than a 'dumb' mobile phone, especially to someone who doesn't own any other computer.

Telephony is dead. These days in many places cannot get a job or function without access to email or chat. In a lot of non-rich markets the smartphone is the cheapest option to gain access to these communication systems.

We're not in 1998 anymore where people phone you.

> In a lot of non-rich markets the smartphone is the cheapest option to gain access to these communication systems.

I'd say that's nowadays true for richer parts of the world as well.

Yeah - although at least according to analytics a lot of western world people also own a computer. In many asian/african areas most of the population only has a smartphone to access the internet.

It is a lifeline for many - especially in poor world. Work, school and everything is arranged in WhatsApp or FB

WhatsApp just this year cut off access for iPhone 4 users, but iPhone 4S users can still use it, as well as anything newer.

The iPhone 4S, which still works with WhatsApp, debuted in 2011. They're cheap and reliable.

It hasn't been a gadget for close to ten years now.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com