The FBI is secretly using Sabre as a global travel surveillance tool
forbes.com
forbes.com
You're only likely to be in a Sabre system if you've been booked by your company through a travel agent and rent using legacy car/hotel companies also through your company's travel agent.
Lots of board and CXX whigs book their vacations through their agent on their company's dime as a part of their benefits package which is actually a great deal for them. I'm more of a thrill seeker so I wouldn't use one but the average person who just wants a stable planned-out vacation that they only get once a year it's a really good idea.
I am so glad I don't work there anymore.
I worked at a place where "thou shalt" use some stupid travel agent to buy intercity train tickets. You had to call the company and pick up the paper ticket in some inconvenient place between the hours of 10-3, closed from 12-1. The ticket cost ~$5-10 more than buying it at the train station, split between the travel agent and procurement group, unless you purchased it a month in advance, and could be used for 6 months.
The "hack" was that business units with lots of travel would buy 100 at a time every couple of months, and you'd need to find a secretary with a stash to get a paper ticket. I would ply them with my wife's baking to ensure a steady supply. Not surprisingly, many tickets were wasted unused (in pursuit of saving the $5), or people took unnecessary trips to avoid wasting money on tickets (and wasting 3x more in per diems, etc).
The next innovation was to declare that the trip was an emergency, and then you could buy the ticket from the conductor, in cash. The penance for less hassle is that you had to write a sad tale about why attending a training class met some standard for "emergency" travel.
- Booking fees are itemized and stated up front. $3 for bookings handled 100% via the online reservation system, $25 if you ever have to talk to an actual agent.
- The online reservation system shows publicly listed rates as well as negotiated rates, and you're free to choose what you want within policy. The negotiated rates were virtually never the cheapest, but they also tended to come with a lot more flexibility (i.e. no change fees, refundable up to time of departure, 24 hour cancellation of hotel reservations, etc).
Those two aspects, combined with the fact that the travel would ultimately be booked to your card on file anyway (generally a corp card for anyone traveling frequently), pretty much negates any incentive to go outside of the official travel system. Depending on the trip and your travel budget, you can either go with the riskier but cheaper options or go with the more flexible but also more expensive options. The default booking fee is tiny enough to be understandable, and the incremental $22 fee ends up well worth it in the situations you need to call the travel team's 1-800 number to get you out of a bind.
The old system didn't bother me much as I was used to it being The Way Companies Are. But after being spoiled here, I dread the day I end up in another travel-heavy job and have to go back to the more typical Big Corp travel process.
The online bookings still routed through an internal travel agent for final approval and execution of the booking, but I never actually interacted with anyone. The manual bookings were the only time I ever spoke with an agent, and it was almost always to handle an itinerary that was too complex for the UI of the online booking system to accommodate.
What, you think we set up a VPN for them so their SQL client in Fort Meade can just query as they please? Or do you think they hack us?
>What, you think we set up a VPN for them so their SQL client in Fort Meade can just query as they please?
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/12801415/p...
>Or do you think they hack us?
Sure, NSA can't directly query against whatever database gmail uses to store your email, but they still have all your emails, photos, and login history. As far as your privacy is concerned, there isn't really any meaningful difference.
Suppose I sent an email yesterday from my Gmail to a friend's Gmail, are you saying the text of this email is stored on an NSA machine?
Maybe not today, but during its heyday must certainly.
>Internal NSA presentation slides included in the various media disclosures show that the NSA could unilaterally access data and perform "extensive, in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information" with examples including email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice-over-IP chats (such as Skype), file transfers, and social networking details.[2] Snowden summarized that "in general, the reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc. analyst has access to query raw SIGINT [signals intelligence] databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want."
>[Glenn Greenwald] added that the NSA databank, with its years of collected communications, allows analysts to search that database and listen "to the calls or read the emails of everything that the NSA has stored, or look at the browsing histories or Google search terms that you've entered, and it also alerts them to any further activity that people connected to that email address or that IP address do in the future."[44] Greenwald was referring in the context of the foregoing quotes to the NSA program X-Keyscore.[45]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#E...
But let's suppose they don't have your emails stored in their datacenters. Instead, it's still stored on google's servers but they can access your emails via automated requests to google, via search terms or by providing your user handle. Is that a meaningful difference, in terms of privacy?
> "Instead, it's still stored on google's servers but they can access your emails via automated requests to google, via search terms or by providing your user handle"
You just said previously the exact opposite! That they can't query Google, but they have the data themselves.
> "Is that a meaningful difference, in terms of privacy?"
Yes, because it means Google are aware of what data they are being requested, and what they are sending in return.
The transparency reports for these companies show that the total number of requests is in the region of 10k/year - a lot in some senses, but nowhere near the level of surveillance many people seem to believe.
We can discuss the problems with it, but only if we start from a point of truth.
PRISM is not a VPN with a SQL client, or anything close to it.
The second one does not refer to domestic hacking. They don’t do that.
- Legally: They get served a NSL with a gag order forcing them to add the backdoor without telling you, on penalty of prison time
- Extra-legally: They get blackmailed by a TLA do add access and cover it up, or else.
("They" is not necessarily the company's CEO/CTO, but a sufficiently senior DBA/network admin.)
What do you believe is happening in that second image?
One could argue semantics as to whether a fiber tap is "hacking" or not, or whether tapping a domestic company's network from an international transit link counts as "domestic hacking"... but there is ample evidence that US intelligence agencies do target domestic companies and their networks.
See also, the rest of the docs on MUSCULAR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSCULAR_(surveillance_program...
Since the links are likely compromised, ubiquitous encryption is your friend.
The FBI (and NSA for that matter) are a lot more constrained by the law than HN seems to think, they can't just shell anyone they want especially if the target is a third party that has done nothing wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSCULAR_(surveillance_program...
Pretty much that, and also tapping any traffic that's in their internal networks, since that's not encrypted either.
> What does that have to do with the FBI hacking into the backend of a airline company?
That's one possible attack that the FBI could be carrying out. ie. sabre doesn't encrypt its communications in their internal network, and that's being tapped similar to how the NSA tapped google's internal networks.
The reality is not that clear. A lot of what governs what these agencies can and can't do comes from executive branch policies. There is a lot of gray around what is "legal" and congress likes it that way because it keeps responsibility for allowing to much or not enough surveillance far away from them.
What's more, you cannot adjudicate what you don't know about and a lot of the secrecy in programs like this is just as much about keeping away civil libertarian attorneys as it is about confounding "the enemy". There's a reason the FISA court rules nearly 100% of the time with the state. Responding attorneys are rarely involved and when they are they are often hamstrung due to a lack of knowledge that prevents them from filing any kind of useful motion or raising serious opposition.
If you’d like to ask a different question, feel free, but I am not interested playing the “are you saying...” game.
No entity is going to ignore subpoenas or warrants. They may challenge them for reasons that are applicable to the business.
Some companies establish subpoena canaries for that specific reason.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/...
Citation needed
Stellar Wind, Tempora, Prism.
https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000001733041/the-pr...
This is a particularly interesting profile of Binney, who worked on stellar wind.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2018/09/13/uk-ma...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23123964
Of course they claimed after being exposed that these programs are legal, but I think lawless is apt as these agencies don't consider the law as a boundary they need to respect.
O tempora, o mores
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/05/23/the-secret-sha...
Tempora is domestic hacking, Stellar Wind is domestic hacking (sweeping up data from all Americans), and these agencies share data extensively, so domestic vs foreign has very little meaning to them at least.
I’m familiar with what kinds of things they do, and I don’t agree that they should be doing a lot of what they do. It’s just that rooting american assets isn’t one of those.
Also, you have the wrong country for Tempora.
Files obtained from Edward Snowden suggest NSA can collect information sent by fibre optic cable between Google and Yahoo data hubs 'at will'...
Citing documents obtained from former NSA contractor Edward Snowden and interviews with officials, the Washington Post claimed the agency could collect information "at will" from among hundreds of millions of user accounts.
The documents suggest that the NSA, in partnership with its British counterpart GCHQ, is copying large amounts of data as it flows across fiber-optic cables that carry information between the worldwide data centers of the Silicon Valley giants. The intelligence activities of the NSA outside the US are subject to fewer legal constraints than its domestic actions.
31 October 2013
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/oct/30/google-re...
You've referenced proof they couldn't hack Google and instead they had to use alternative measures.
>Google is understood to be working on "forward encryption" for its private network so that communications even over its private leased lines would be unintelligible to anyone without the "keys" to decrypt it.
That's basically the reason it was even possible. Such surveillance is not a hack.
Don't be so quick to say "you" are not actively having data taken. "You" just might not be aware of it.
I haven't ever tried connecting to it, but I'll tell you when I alerted their security team there was no urgency about it, and the password was so simple I bet you could guess it within 10 tries.
Would that surprise anyone? Governments are known to stockpile and exploit vulnerabilities in targeted computers in order to obtain access. The US government even came up with an euphemism for this malware: network investigative techniques.
All I can say is you're very likely not a point in Sabre's private data mining set.
I would be surprised if say British Airways didn't.
[0] https://www.emirates247.com/business/corporate/buying-ticket...
Source: worked at Amadeus.
The best example I can think of is American. They have Amadeus running their international website. Their ticketing system is internal. And all their inventory is managed in Sabre.
Southwest was similar, for a while Amadeus ran their international site while Southwest ran an outdated internal system for domestic travel that didnt support flights leaving and arriving on different days. They eventually had Amadeus move into running their domestic stuff a few years ago and now they have red-eyes.
Delta runs all their own stuff on a mainframe and from the outside it looked like a slow moving disaster. I know Amadeus sees all their inventory and looks at each passenger.
Heh. I remember thinking years back that it was odd that Southwest never had any overnight flights, especially transcontinental. Just assumed it was the way they did business and some sort of cost cutting measure. Didn't think it'd be due to a software limitation!
This _is_ a cost cutting measure. They decided not to pay for their software to support red eyes.
> In commercial aviation, a red-eye flight is a flight scheduled to depart at night and arrive the next morning.
Can anyone else comment/confirm?
They do have some notable historical challenges though. Like foreign currency. They still cannot do that, despite flying to Costa Rica, Mexico, etc.
Regarding foreign currency, it’s a strategy choice on their behalf, they don’t want to own sales offices outside the USA
Trust me, I know a lot about this particular topic :)
As a general rule the large majority of anything you don't book directly with the airline/hotel (and for all I know, some of what you do) is very likely to be in a GDS somewhere.
Once your travel details are in the GDS then the airline clerks, car rental sales person, hotel clerks, and your travel agent can check out or update your travel info for you just based on the PNR number on your airline ticket for convenience if you're just not into that weird smartphone thing. You can change a bunch of things during the trip like what car you drive and hotel amenities during your stay so after the trip ends we download your trip from Sabre and build reports for your boss or whatever.
Fun Facts, when I worked there, you could fly for free on American Airlines ( the company got split out from AA ). They claimed to employ the most PhDs at one time ( lots of operations research). Also claimed to invent database transactions for the problem of people trying to book the same seat on airplanes at the same time (early 60s I believe)
> If you book through the airline's systems or on online reservation systems they likely use the airline's systems to track travel instead of GDS since the GDS wants to take a big cut of every ticket sale.
But in my experience, the airline backend and pricing is usually outsourced to Sabre or Amadeus. Frontier and Southwest are the only big players I know of that handle that sort of thing themselves, and Frontier has a teeny-tiny routelist compared to the others.
True, but that doesn't make the reservations visible in the GDS. If Sabre or Amadeus is running your "CRS (Central Res System)", they aren't allowed to do anything with the data that you haven't asked them to.
It doesn't change the fact that a state will get the PNR from the airline.
Its actually the other way around, some airlines have their own system, but most use some sort of GDS.
i.e. even when you make a booking directly with one of the airlines above mentioned, the entire PNR is still created and used in a GDS.
Even when you use Farelogix (for LH NDC bookings for example) the entire PNR also gets created in AMA. When you want to make changes in the LH PNR that FLX does not support yet, you still have to make the changes in the AMA PNR.
Your travel is certainly no mystery to the state without this one airline feed.
The feds get every card swipe in real-time without a warrant.
Basically today, everybody should assume that the government knows everything about you - where you live, where you work, what car you drive, where you travel, What property you own, lease , whom you call etc. Privacy exists in name only.
Given that this information is the companies own info, voluntarily shared as a private business, I wonder if we can make a comparison to free speech and the notion that free speech still exists despite most avenues of communication now being privatized and having control over what speech is allowed. Conceptually, if free speech can still be considered to exist in such a realm, cannot privacy? Yes, you may have to choose to note engage in companies that share their data if you want to keep your privacy, but that is much like what happens if you want to be able to speak without having to follow the limits those companies have in place. This is not to say the arguments are identical, but that there does seem to be similarity in their structure.
If one can takes the argument that you can keep your privacy by just refusing to use airlines, credit cards, hotels, etc. and says that being forced to give up so much to maintain privacy means that privacy is dead (or exists in name only), then shouldn't it also be possible to make the argument that you can keep your free speech as long as you avoid the growing list of companies who refuse to business with individuals who engage in certain forms of speech (especially who do so loudly) mean that free speech is also dead?
If instead the 'private businesses doing what they want' argument wins, then shouldn't it also apply in the case of privacy? That the company sharing whom they are offering a service to doesn't violate privacy because it is information you willingly gave them that they can then give others. (The case where the information is gathered through overly broad warrants stands out as an exception, being that it is forced by the government.)
Contrary to what some posters here seem to be saying, Sabre is very widely used in many parts of the travel industry.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/leemathews/2017/07/06/travel-gi...
Any old school travel agent can look up names and follow their travel history anyway? (No matter how it is booked btw)
You could call one up and ask if X has got on the flight and they can check. I've done it before to check if I wanted to know the persons flight was delayed and made it to the airport on time.
[1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6989724-All-Writs-Ac...
MI picked up a LOT of technical debt and a LOT of security bugs when transitioning SPG programs and properties into MI's portfolio (thankfully, I was off of that project at that point in time).
I don't think this is the case where the FBI or other conglomerates have direct SQL-style access into their systems, but, more-so where FBI has retired or plans internally to pull data from systems when requested: When it's hard as hell for employees with the proper need-to-know for their application to pull up data in a meaningful fashion, you know that it's next to impossible for Law Enforcement to have a nice little dashboard where they can just type "Ian Wilson" and get a list of every place I've ever stayed ever (unless they're working with VISA: that's something that I kinda expect, tho).
Seeing how they used Sabre to prosecute a measly $5000 damage, we can surmise that they'll use this and similar systems for just about anything they can possibly be used for.
see page 8.
GCHQ has a program called ROYALCONCIERGE, where they hack the reservation systems of hotels to watch for targets renting rooms. then GCHQ sends teams ahead of time to intercept the targets, preaumably to spy on them, or assassinate them or rendition them to a black site.
from another Snowden doc which i can no longer find, it was revealed that ROYAL CONCIERGE hacked hotels owned by Starwood, one of the biggest umbrella corps owning multiple global hotel chains.
you think NSA only went after Starwood hotels? remember NSA said their "Full Spectrum Domination" posture means "Collect It All."
you think if NSA/GCHQ are hacking into hotel reservation databases to exfiltrate the whole shebang, that Airline reservation systems are NOT a higher priority?
a commenter said it is ridiculous hypocracy how we blast China for forcing its tech companies to become appendages of their military/intelligence complex, while ignoring FBI/CIA/NSA do the very exact same thing under the rubric of NSLs and Bulk FISA Warrants and Business Records "All Tangible Things" and EO12333 get-out-of-jail-free cards to target anything loosely related to "understanding foreign intelligence."
there is zero difference between what China does and what the FVEYs do, except that our Overlords tell us they are not spying on us, while every peasant in China knows they are being spied on by their govt because the Chinese govt openly admits to it.
We’re constantly told China is a threat, and that’s probably a reasonable bit of advice.
We’re not constantly told our own governments are a threat, and that forms the basis of propaganda and misinformation.
> We’re not constantly told our own governments are ...
When I read these statements, I can't help to substitute these nouns with "a used car salesperson".
Of course a used car salesperson will talk up the cars on their lot and won't go out of their way to point out the defects or bad value. That's exactly why we should look for sources other than the salesperson and their allies. Look for data supplied by neutral third parties who have a slight adversarial stance. Also look for data from strong adversaries and evaluate the likelihood of truth versus pure propaganda.
The experience in the 21st century has thankfully been a little bit milder but (1) we're only 20 years in and (2) if you are going to be persecuted it is still far more likely to be by a local government than a foreign government.
On the contrary I'd say a very notable feature the US culture is the adversarial view people have of the government. It's practically part of every major party's platform.
That has not been my experience living in America. Not even remotely.
The key bias here is normalisation of deviance, both on an individual and regime level.
This is one of the rare cases when China has been brought up in the opposite direction.
First mover advantage matters.
But now first movers are watching their lunch get eaten by new comers who can move with more agility and know the lay of the land.
Same bit of typical history-repetition.
We can fight it by electing the correct people.
But more importantly, I won't be spirited away to a black site by speaking ill about the president. Nor can the government decide it doesn't want me as CEO of my company anymore. Or prevent me from funding the opposition party.
There's an enormous difference between the West and totalitarian dystopia China.
Can we? Please explain how that would work... Your faith in democracy is admirable, although misplaced.
The thing that is conducive to a surveillance state is the centralization of power and information. In some cases this is a strong federal government, but Facebook is as big a problem as Sabre is as big a problem as Amazon etc.
But democracy is not more prone to the development of centralized power than any other system.
The issue today is large corporations as well. When Take Two can send private investigators to intimidate a youtuber at his home there is no way to have people's rights be secure.
>That being said, the experiment is on-going so we can’t definitively say Democracy is the best system
Whoever said this? It's directly contradicting Churchill's quote, so not really part of a response to what I said.
The reason the right has been so successful is because these policies have been made divisive in an ongoing culture war.
This is weakening the US as a whole.
To fix it, first dismantle the structures that are fueling the culture war. And the only way to do this is to co-op the middle.
Can we? I don't see anyone on either side [0] of the isle doing much of anything about this.
> But more importantly, I won't be spirited away to a black site by speaking ill about the president.
No, but you can be if you're in Portland any time soon.
[0] Why TF are we stuck with TWO?
No STV for congress/senate
No AV for president
Imagine you could rank you votes
1) Cruz
2) Bush (J)
3) McCain
4) Johnson
5) Sanders
6) Trump
7) Clinton (H)
We have hundreds of parties.
We have have had at most two viable parties nationally, and in each state—though not always the same two—since the founding (with brief moments of only 1 nationally, and a lot more of only one in particular states) because of our FPTP election system for Congress and most state executive and legislative offices, and our even-more-hostile-to-minor-parties Presidential election system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/STAR_voting
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Inters...
IRV has worldwide use – probably most heavily used in Australia, but also for some elections in Ireland, India, Papua New Guinea, and the United States (elections in Maine; also some local elections in a number of states).
IRV also has a long history – Australia has been using it at the federal level for over a century now (and at the state level for even longer than that).
By contrast, STAR doesn't appear to be used anywhere of any significance. There is a movement in Oregon to get it adopted, but thus far the movement hasn't had success. According to Wikipedia, the only people using it are Multnomah County Democratic Party for internal elections.
And that's unsurprising given how new it is – it was invented in 2014. Why prefer a system which was only invented six years ago, to a system which has over a century of significant real world use?
If the goal is to prevent the two-party system, Australia has basically turned into that with two major parties i.e. Labor and Liberal with smaller parties choosing sides, and being negligible.
Although, IRV would generally be better than the current American system in a number of ways, but not necessarily something that would break the two-party hegemony.
I think minor parties and independents have played a far more important role in Australia's political history than your statements about "smaller parties choosing sides" and "being negligible" gives them credit. Consider for example, the 1999 decision of the Australian Democrats to support Howard's GST, or the role that the Democratic Labor Party (DLP) arguably played in helping to lock Labor out of the federal government between 1949 and 1972. (Although the Democrats role in supporting the GST was in the Senate, which uses STV not IRV.)
In the results of the 2010 federal election, Labor and the Liberal-National Coalition had 74 seats each, both two short of a majority. Labor managed to form government with the support of four of the six unaligned (independent or minor party) MPs. Two of the independents who supported Labor (Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor) came from a conservative political background, and they could have easily chosen to support the Liberal-National Coalition instead.
Even in strongly multi-party systems like Italy, Spain, Israel, etc, you still tend to end up with two broad coalitions anchored by the major parties of the Left and Right, plus a bunch of centrist parties that may switch between those two coalitions depending on what is on offer after each election. (And also sometimes a far-left / far-right fringe that gets locked out of government, but hopes for the day when the mainstream left/right are desperate enough to turn to them for support.)
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_on_Presidential_Deb...
You can be phone banking within 30 minutes.
You sure about that?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/09/30...
As for Portland, that appears to be an unusual use of Federal authority, but as far as I can tell, they actually do have relatively sweeping legal authority, even if it's not often exercised (see the lawfare blog for some analysis thereof) and everyone is being processed in the regular court system. So it's not exactly the case of being "disappeared" that some reports claimed.
One article had an account of someone abducted, searched, and released, and then the authorities said they did not have records of arresting him. If there's no records, it's not the regular court system, even if it happened in the court building.
It's not clear to me what other records they would have in that case and again, this isn't exactly being "disappeared" given that they were turned over to the police for processing and then released without charges. Sounds more to me like some cops were lazy with the paperwork when they were going to release them anyhow.
The feds have wide-ranging authority to arrest people and always have, though:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-heck-are-federal-law-enforc...
If that happened to someone you were walking with and they left you there, wouldn't you call police and report that your friend was abducted?
Also, the government officials have claimed the people weren't arrested, and my understanding (which could easily be wrong) is being detained by law enforcement means you're not permitted to leave, not that you must go with them, so I'm out of words.
http://opb-imgserve-production.s3-website-us-west-2.amazonaw...
---
It appears that the State has largely backed away from any argument that the federal agents were not at all identifiable as law enforcement. Mr. Pettibone acknowledges that their uniforms said “Police,” Pettibone Decl. [1-1] ¶ 3, and the video shows agents wearing clothing clearly marked as “Police.”
One antidote to hate and fear is laughter and play; see for example Dutch historian and cultural theorist Johan Huizinga, author of "Homo Ludens" (who was eventually held in detention by the Nazis): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Ludens
And playfulness and laughter can be regained: https://myshrink.com/dont-laugh-anymore/ "If your nervous system activation increases over your lifetime, chances are you'll lose your capacity for spontaneous laughter. Those folks who notice the difference in themselves might say they are "tapped out" or "I don't feel like myself". Indeed, there's some folks who've never had the ability for a good laugh to begin with. Don't despair. Just because you don't laugh anymore doesn't mean that can't be changed - it's temporary - unless you decide to do nothing about it."
I've started watching the original "The Prisoner" series again ( https://archive.org/details/The_Prisoner ) and reading comments on it. It is becoming clearer that ultimately, fifty years after that series first aired, we are all part of a global village now... For good or bad, we are part of that system -- and there is essentially no possibility of "escape" because that system in some form is everywhere.
And seeing the Prisoner series again decades later -- informed by some comments -- it is also clearer the series does not take an absolutist stand on one side or the other of the free-seeming individual or the structured-seeming community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner "A major theme of the series is individualism, as represented by Number Six, versus collectivism, as represented by Number Two and the others in the Village. McGoohan stated that the series aimed to demonstrate a balance between the two points."
From the second Prisoner episode, "The Chimes of Big Ben" which I re-watched today: https://subslikescript.com/series/The_Prisoner-61287/season-...
Number Six: You're just as much a prisoner as I am.
Number Two: Of course, I know too much - we're both lifers. I am an optimist. It doesn't matter who Number One is. It doesn't matter which side runs the Village. It's run by one side. But both sides are becoming identical. What has been created is an international community, a blueprint for world order. When both sides realise they're the same, they'll see this is the pattern for the future.
Number Six: The whole earth as the Village?
Number Two: That is my hope. What's yours?
Number Size: To be the first man on the moon.
As parts of that now essentially inescapable Global Village system built by all sides over the last half century, we can do what we can when we can to make it better somehow. As in the coincidentally written ~1932-1933 prayer by the American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer "Father, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and the insight to know the one from the other."For example, the Starship Enterprise in Star Trek is essentially a surveillance state where the computer knows everything everyone is doing all the time -- but somehow we don't see the series through that surveillance state lens. Perhaps that is in part because of the amazing opportunities that cheap energy, matter replicators, space travel, holographic simulations, and so on make possible through widespread abundance for all Federation citizens in that (still) fictional universe? Or perhaps also it is because the surveillance is somehow behind some sort of assumed legitimate authority of access and (virtual) privacy?
See also on the issue of surveillance and power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transparent_Society "The Transparent Society (1998) is a non-fiction book by the science-fiction author David Brin in which he forecasts social transparency and some degree of erosion of privacy, as it is overtaken by low-cost surveillance, communication and database technology, and proposes new institutions and practices that he believes would provide benefits that would more than compensate for lost privacy."
The recent unrest in the USA is emerging not from surveillance by the police of the citizenry but (via cell phones) from surveillance by the citizenry of the police (and what some specific police officers did to George Floyd).
A related touchstone by Manuel De Landa: "Meshworks, Hierachies, and Interfaces": http://netbase.org/delanda/meshwork.htm "To make things worse, the solution to this is not simply to begin adding meshwork components to the mix. Indeed, one must resist the temptation to make hierarchies into villains and meshworks into heroes, not only because, as I said, they are constantly turning into one another, but because in real life we find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties of these cannot be established through theory alone but demand concrete experimentation. Certain standardizations, say, of electric outlet designs or of data-structures traveling through the Internet, may actually turn out to promote heterogenization at another level, in terms of the appliances that may be designed around the standard outlet, or of the services that a common data-structure may make possible. On the other hand, the mere presence of increased heterogeneity is no guarantee that a better state for society has been achieved. After all, the territory occupied by former Yugoslavia is more heterogeneous now than it was ten years ago, but the lack of uniformity at one level simply hides an increase of homogeneity at the level of the warring ethnic communities. But even if we managed to promote not only heterogeneity, but diversity articulated into a meshwork, that still would not be a perfect solution. After all, meshworks grow by drift and they may drift to places where we do not want to go. The goal-directedness of hierarchies is the kind of property that we may desire to keep at least for certain institutions. Hence, demonizing centralization and glorifying decentralization as the solution to all our problems would be wrong. An open and experimental attitude towards the question of different hybrids and mixtures is what the complexity of reality itself seems to call for. To paraphrase Deleuze and Guattari, never believe that a meshwork will suffice to save us."
Theodore Sturgeon's 1956 short story "The Skills of Xanadu"(which inspired Ted Nelson to work on hypertext, and in a way eventually led to the World Wide Web) also has an interesting take on privacy in a world where people are surrounded with networked technology. Audio: https://archive.org/details/pra-BB3830.08 Text: https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1956-07/Galaxy_195...
I suggest the only justified criterion of authority and rule of law emerges from a high-performance liquid democracy built on infrastructures owned by the people. Those in power have little egoistic reason to enable that thing to evolve. Spontaneous mass cooperation that radically leverages webs of epistemic trust toward maximizing the utility of the those at the bottom appears to be our only hope; I do not predict it.
As your point implies, authority is given by the people. The same point is made in the US Declaration of Independence about "consent of the governed": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_of_the_governed
As is shown (fictionally) in Voyage from Yesteryear, if many people stop obeying like with a general strike (at least until full automation) or just by walking away to new opportunities in a different part of the system, then authority comes under pressure to respond (hopefully positively) or it will eventually will collapse. A similar point is made in the chapter on the "Ghands" in the 1962 sci-fi novel the The Great Explosion" by Eric Frank Russell who live by the adage "Freedom can say "I won't"".
The same has been true throughout human history as explained in Daniel Quinn's "Beyond Civilization: Humanity's Next Great Adventure" where he shows how centralized governance has collapsed many times in human history as whatever problems emerged in it (often from external pressures like droughts or plagues leading to systemic stress) caused most people to just walk away back to the wilderness to live off the land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Civilization
For good or bad, walking away is not much of an option these days given large populations, global surveillance, and also WMDs like nukes and plagues and so on that could be unleashed accidentally or on purpose if power centers collapse.
Collapse of power centers in modern times is also often problematical regarding what comes next -- when most people can't walk away -- is usually the next-best organized group taking over. For example, students in Iran could eventually overthrow the US-installed Sha -- but then better-organized religious hardliners took over in the resulting power vacuum (which is probably not what most Iranian students had in mind for their future). Or, as other examples, the USA could relatively easily overthrow Saddam Hussein in Iraq or Muammar Gaddafi in Libya -- but the resulting power vacuums have created politician and humanitarian disasters which have been very costly to the USA (especially in Iraq, costing trillions of dollars to US taxpayers -- although as a bunch of defense companies have made billions that may have been part of why it went forward despite many people pointing out what was likely to happen: https://www.wanttoknow.info/warisaracket ).
Related humor: "Monty Python: What have the Romans ever done for us?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djZkTnJnLR0
Of course, power centers also tend to actively disrupt any possible other power centers. See the "Old Guy" Cybertank novels for some graphic sci-fi accounts of that in one.
Or for the real world, see for example Noam Chomsky's "The Threat of a Good Example": http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/ChomOdon_Example.h... "No country is exempt from U.S. intervention, no matter how unimportant. In fact, it's the weakest, poorest countries that often arouse the greatest hysteria. ... As far as American business is concerned, Nicaragua could disappear and nobody would notice. The same is true of El Salvador. But both have been subjected to murderous assaults by the US, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and many billions of dollars. There's a reason for that. The weaker and poorer a country is, the more dangerous it is as an example. If a tiny, poor country like Grenada can succeed in bringing about a better life for its people, some other place that has more resources will ask, "why not us?" "
As you say, people in power have little reason to embrace change -- since their power derives from the status quo. Related on "Orthodoxy" by G. K. Chesteron: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/orthodoxy.x.html "We have remarked that one reason offered for being a progressive is that things naturally tend to grow better. But the only real reason for being a progressive is that things naturally tend to grow worse. The corruption in things is not only the best argument for being progressive; it is also the only argument against being conservative. The conservative theory would really be quite sweeping and unanswerable if it were not for this one fact. But all conservatism is based upon the idea that if you leave things alone you leave them as they are. But you do not. If you leave a thing alone you leave it to a torrent of change. If you leave a white post alone it will soon be a black post. If you particularly want it to be white you must be always painting it again; that is, you must be always having a revolution. Briefly, if you want the old white post you must have a new white post. But this which is true even of inanimate things is in a quite special and terrible sense true of all human things. An almost unnatural vigilance is really required of the citizen because of the horrible rapidity with which human institutions grow old. It is the custom in passing romance and journalism to talk of men suffering under old tyrannies. But, as a fact, men have almost always suffered under new tyrannies; under tyrannies that had been public liberties hardly twenty years before. ..."
Classically, people have "organized" via a certain sort of social process, such as documented in "Politics the Wellstone Way: How to Elect Progressive Candidates and Win on Issues": https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/234876.Politics_the_Well...
One can wonder how effective such classical organizing is anymore given tightly controlled (by money) major broadcast media. And even if that was somehow circumvented, then as with Bernie Sanders (twice), the establishment has other ways of preserving itself like by convincing candidates to drop out of the race.
Then there are other possible ways of disrupting such organizations vulnerable to things like, say, small plane crashes involving key organizers. Wellstone died in a small plane crash, which of course might have just been an accident despite suggestions to the contrary: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/10/well-o29.html "Wellstone’s death comes almost two years to the day after a similar plane crash killed another Democratic Senate hopeful locked in a tight election contest, Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan, on October 16, 2000. The American media duly noted the “eerie coincidence,” as though it was a statistical oddity, rather than suggesting a pattern. One might say, paraphrasing Oscar Wilde, that to lose one senator is a misfortune, but to lose two senators, the same way, is positively suspicious."
Another idea other than "organizing" that fits with what you wrote on spontaneous mass cooperation is "quorum sensing": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_sensing "In biology, quorum sensing is the ability to detect and to respond to cell population density by gene regulation. As one example, quorum sensing (QS) enables bacteria to restrict the expression of specific genes to the high cell densities at which the resulting phenotypes will be most beneficial. Many species of bacteria use quorum sensing to coordinate gene expression according to the density of their local population. In a similar fashion, some social insects use quorum sensing to determine where to nest. Also, quorum sensing might be useful for cancer cell communications too. In addition to its function in biological systems, quorum sensing has several useful applications for computing and robotics. In general, quorum sensing can function as a decision-making process in any decentralized system in which the components have: (a) a means of assessing the number of other components they interact with and (b) a standard response once a threshold number of components is detected."
Ultimately, if systems of power refuse to negotiate new terms for support by the governed when circumstances change, either they will be successful at suppressing dissent by whatever means or they won't. But if centers of power are going to fail, the longer they fight change, often the worse the failure, and the less the existing power may have a say in the new order (for good or bad).
Still, in the past, some power centers (typically organized around control of a key resource like water) have lasted for thousands of years (such as the Egyptian Empire) -- so people in power can always hope they will be part of the next Ancient Egypt. As G. William Domhoff writes regarding "four main organizational networks -- ideological, economic, military, and political -- as the building blocks for power structures": https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/theory/four_networks.html "Before civilizations emerged, there may have been "inverted power structures" in which the rank-and-file could discipline would-be dominators through gossip, scorn, shunning, and if need be, assassination (Boehm, 1999). Only where river flooding allowed the possibility of alluvial agriculture, in conjunction with close proximity to geographical areas that encouraged different but complementary networks, did the "caging" of populations make possible the development of the fixed power structures of domination and exploitation that have characterized all civilizations. The strong egalitarian tendencies that characterized pre-historic social groups were submerged when power seekers could build on a religious, economic, military, or political base to gain control of others."
I've been hopeful for a Universal Basic Income eventually to soften the worst extremes of the USA's current economic system for many people (as part of a healthy mix of subsistence, gift, exchange, and planned activities in society). But given that the obvious solution was not tried on an even temporary basis for the pandemic despite multiple congress people endorsing monthly payments for the duration, it seems like the USA is still not quite there yet -- even if closer than ever, given increased public awareness of the idea. For example Kamala Harris: https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1271151635549556736 "Roughly 44M Americans have filed for unemployment over the past 12 weeks. That’s why @BernieSanders, @EdMarkey & I introduced a bill to give $2,000 monthly payments to people throughout this crisis. Bills didn’t stop just because we’re in the middle of a pandemic."
Rashida Tlaib, AOC, and other Congressional representatives have similar ideas. Instead of those ideas, the USA quickly threw trillions of dollars at wealthy people: https://prospect.org/coronavirus/unsanitized-bailouts-tradit...
G. William Domhoff has some other interesting thing to on his website, stuff sometimes many years old, like: https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/change/science_why.html "Based on these findings, it seems likely that everyday people don't opt for social change in good part because they don't see any plausible way to accomplish their goals, and haven't heard any plans from anyone else that make sense to them. But why don't they just say "the hell with it" and head to the barricades? Why aren't they "fed up?" The answer is not in their false consciousness or a mere resigned acquiescence, as many leftists seem to believe, but in a very different set of factors. On the one hand, for all the injustices average Americans experience and perceive, there are many positive aspects to everyday life that make a regular day-to-day existence more attractive than a general strike or a commitment to building a revolutionary party. They have loved ones they like to be with, they have hobbies and sports they enjoy, and they have forms of entertainment they like to watch. In fact, many of them also report in surveys that they enjoy their jobs even though the jobs don't pay enough or have decent benefits. (And as of late 2005, 93% of individuals earning over $50,000 a year describe themselves as "doing well.") They also understand that they have some hard-won democratic rights and freedoms inherited from the past that are much more than people in many other countries have. They don't want to see those positive aspects messed up. On a less positive note, many ordinary white workers have priorities that they put ahead of economic issues. As all voting and field studies show, a large number of average white Americans do many things based on their skin color. They often vote Republican, for example, especially in the South. They protest against affirmative action programs. They live in segregated neighborhoods. White Americans also often vote their religion -- that is, the fundamentalist Protestants and conservative Catholics who vote Republican are members of non-college-educated blue-collar and white-collar families. In terms of their economic situation, and their need for unions, they should be for the Democrats, but many of them aren't. It is these alternative issues, both positive and negative, rooted in their own lives and experiences, not a false consciousness created by the capitalists' ideological hegemony, that explain why most Americans don't rebel -- or even vote their pocketbook -- most of the time. In short, the theorists of consciousness may be serious thinkers, and they work at a level that is very attractive to most leftists, but they are wrong when it comes to understanding why positive social change does not happen. They have misconstrued the problem, which has to do with structures of power and life circumstances and the compelling nature of everyday life, not the chains of consciousness. They have misunderstood everyday people, and in effect blamed them for the failures of the left, even though at the theoretical level it seems like they are blaming the overwhelming powers of the dominant class or power elite. They have made the people the problem instead of considering the possibility that what the left offers does not make any sense to most people."
Outrage and destruction resulting from unhappiness and stress is one thing; coherent collective action to some positive ends is another. Destruction is relatively easy compared to making things better. It's OK to be angry or sad as recent protesters in the USA must be feeling, but as Mr. Fred Rogers sings, "What do you do with the Mad that you feel?" And as Domhoff suggests, that can be a difficult question about how to change things to make them better for more people without making things worse for lots more other people.
If you ever drive south a few hours, and would be up for meeting for dinner, coffee, a beer, whatever, let me know. It would be my honor to meet you offline too.
I would like to know your dreams, your wild speculations, and your gut feelings about what the post-scarcity world should look like and how it might come to be.
Communism doesn’t work. We have already found a better system. Do not introduce regressions.
I'm not saying yout wrong, just that Nacchio is not a good example.
I'm not sure what part of identifying the jurors, finding pressure points, and covertly applying pressure you think would be beyond the capabilities of the NSA if they wanted to do it. Or doing the same to Nacchio and/or is counsel, to affect the case that got to the jury.
Not (even a little bit) suggesting that is what happened, just that suggesting it is plausible for the NSA to be able to influence that kind of outcome is not even a tiny stretch.
How do you explain?
Can you point to any candidate let alone party (that stands a snowballs chance in hell of being elected) that has "reduce surveillance" anywhere in their manifestos?
The last 70 years of Democrat and Republican rule would suggest not.
Every year for a long time there has been a senator named Paul who has complained about this stuff nonstop. Nobody has listened because it is not a partisan issue. If this were a partisan issue we'd have billions of dollars behind it on both sides and the pendulum would eventually swing one way or the other.
No, you can't. Because the people you're allowed to elect are all complicit in the creation and maintenance of these systems.
Trump started doing that in Portland last week.
Earlier today, he said he plans to expand the program to New York, Chicago, Oakland, Detroit, and a bunch of cities with in blue states.
Apparently, the Chicago PD’s leadership is welcoming it because the mayor “makes them fight with kid gloves” and this will let them ignore state and local regulations.
They also say they’re planning to bypass the state courts because federal courts have harsher sentencing guidelines.
My point isn’t that we are powerless, but that our secretly surveillance state is baked into the system, probably far beyond repair since we’ve long already chosen security over freedom.
"China knows they are being spied" -> Not sure govt public admitting spying and censorship is a good thing at all. It sets a vert bad example for the rest of the country to follow.
If it's OK for the central govt to do those shitty business (arguably backed by those so called national security rationals, whole another topic). Then how about local govt to use the same toolkits? How about powerful corporations, how about celebrities? Since the central govt sets a bad example, everyone else who's holding power are tend to think this is just OK. IMHO, that is what's causing much bigger damages.
It is happening in Oregon.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/18/call-kidnapping-...
When I was a child, the US wouldn't open admit to torture. It didn't have publicly known programs to ship prisoners to other jurisdictions so the U.S. rules of conduct could be bypassed. It didn't have a (publicly known) prison filled with non-U.S. people that were denied a civil trial. It didn't have a president that actively preached for or against public companies outside of criminal matters. When I was a child, a president openly violating ethics concerns WAS a matter of that president getting removed - with such certainty they'd step down to avoid the inevitable result.
I'm totally willing to believe that an aberrant behavior doesn't have to become the norm, but I won't believe that should be expected. I've been told all my life to expect that dramatic reactions and concerns are overstated and not the case, that we should all be calm and expect things to work out well, but if I look at the actual events of my life, I see the opposite lessons being taught: Unless we react strongly, clearly, and persistently, progress will not happen and things will slide for the worse.
It's not the lesson I want to learn, it's not a lesson I am comfortable with, but it does appear to be what I've seen in the last few decades.
JFK - lying about the missile gap with Russia to get elected
Johnson - lying about his intentions in Vietnam
Nixon - too many to list
If anything, I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials.
Yes, and it's because there are more watchdogs and reporting than ever before, and "the internet does not forget"
And politicians using inordinate behaviours as political currency and more people to condone the same absurdities
And that's what worries me - note in my post above I was careful to talk about "public". Before there was a veil of deniability, the idea that at least a pretense of innocence had to be maintained.
Now it feels like there is little care to hide it. Sure, many of us are outraged, but that outrage has done nothing to translate into stopping the actions.
When even pretence is no longer a concern, there's no limit really.
Go back a little more and you've got Mexicans at the border branded as dirty, forced to take bleach showers and have their clothes fumigated using Zyklon-B, inspiring the Germans to use it to mass-execute Jews. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Bath_riots ).
Go back a little more and you've got slavery and states trying to segregate from the US to maintain the system.
Go back a little more and you've got immigrants genociding the native population using biological agents, bullets, and mass rape to conquer the land as their own.
The US has NEVER had the moral high ground; their best claim to fame is helping to liberate Europe from the Nazis, but other than that they've absolutely shit.
But no, let's focus on the Karens who claim oppression because they need to wear a mask in Walmart instead.
I recall the racially loaded term "Vanilla ISIS" being used.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-co...
I don't know if you are a native speaker, but the word kidnap might not be the one you should be using. "Kidnap" has strong connotations, and while sime people will happily use that property of the word to create feelings I don't think it is appropriate here.
kidnap: abduct (someone) and hold them captive, typically to obtain a ransom.
There's a lot to be said about police, federal agents, TSA etc, but lets keep this serious.
Proving whether that person participated in the riot is a matter for the courts, all that's needed for an arrest is reasonable suspicion.
> anyways the federal agents are not pulling out random genuine protestors (how would that make sense?). they are pulling out the violent ones.
You are assuming that the federal agents are interested in the well-being of protestors. There is no proof of that. Much more likely, the federal agents have 2 goals: stop and deligitimize the protests, and protect federal or local property from the looting.
The first goal is best achieved by detaining and threatening non-violent protestors, especially their leaders, and journalists friendly to the cause. Violent protestors are already giving the protests a bad name, so they are helping the government's cause. Of course, some violent protestors also need to be stopped, to fulfill their second goal.
Today it would be impossible to ignore something that big, it would show up on social media.
To people arguing these are "arrests", well funny the arrested are just let go when they ask for a lawyer. It's an intimidation tactic. The rubberhosing and disappearing will come too, when that's deemed an acceptable intimidation tactic.
It's going to backfire in cities with popular support for the protests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onmsFzEtK7U
What's your point?
Wishing there was evidence of something is different than there actually being evidence of something.
Riiiiight.
Going all the way back to May 29th, protesting has morphed into rioting on a nightly basis. Rioters have fired guns and hit bystanders. "The rioters and looters shattered store windows and tagged buildings with graffiti that police say stretched for 20 blocks." "Demonstrators broke into and started a fire inside the Multnomah County Justice Center, home to hundreds of inmates." "Other protesters set fires throughout downtown, torching dumpsters, trash cans, cars and pallets." -- That was all May 29th.
Here is timeline of the first 12 days. It's much the same every night. [1]
I believe it's Day 50+ now.
[1] - https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/protests-in-...
And 'waiting for the details to come out in a few weeks' is never justified. If the government has just cause, they should ideally show it before they do seemingly illegal actions, especially in the current climate; at the very least, once the governor of the state is suing to get federal agents to stop, any evidence of a just cause should be immediately made public.
Since neither has happened, people should act now, not later. Any data that comes to light weeks from now is going to be rightfully suspected of being manufactured anyway.
Given how distorted and contextless the politically relevant information we get is, waiting a few weeks for the details is almost always the right choice. This situation may be an exception but I doubt it.
It's not about accepting it, it's been knowingly used for decades in different countries around the world. Why would the US be immune to it?
1. Cops pull over people and arrest them all the time using unmarked cars - why is it an issue now?
2. The cops are identified as such (that's the badge on the shoulder). Undercover cops can arrest people too - why is it any issue?
3. These people are being arrested and released - doesn't sound like kidnapping to me. Sounds like law enforcement doing their job.
But hey, the never let the truth get in the way of your political goals, right?
People are arrested and released because they haven't committed a crime. Arresting people who haven't done anything wrong is not the job of the police.
The Portland Police are arresting people for disturbing the peace. So are the federal police, the only difference is the people they are arresting are being release because the Portland DA chooses not to press charges.
It's all political. I don't know about you, but I'd be more concerned about the Portland justice system being perverted just to stick it to Trump.
People arrested for disturbing the peace in the US won’t disappear or end up in a re-education camp where their organs may be harvested.[2] Hong Kongers are certainly fighting for the right to remain under common law, there’s a clear difference in theory and practice.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_(law)
[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-china-rights-idUS...
I don't think people are trying to stick it to Trump. People have been angry about police brutality and police killing black civilians for a long time. The LA riots were 30 years ago, and things haven't really changed that much since then - there are still cases of the police killing people with far too much regularity. This is a political issue, but it's one that crosses party boundaries. People are only really angry about Trump because he's in office at the moment; if it was a different president they'd be angry at him.
In effect, he's arguing that rioting has been decriminalised in Portland without any popular vote and without any explicit decision ever having been made. If that's true it's unsurprising the police keep arresting people and they keep being released. The issue there wouldn't be the police. If Portland wants riots to be legal when the rioters support leftist causes, they should explicitly adjust the local laws to allow it.
That said, the link they provide states the guy was released "on own recognizance" which basically means he promised to turn up in court at a future date, albeit with no bail money paid. So it doesn't say charges were dropped.
Well, the entire context. The first is that they are barely marked, you mention this in point #2, but a badge that just says "police" with no further identification or badge number is basically anonymity. How do you report abuse in this situation?
In addition to this, you have a historical precedent where right wing groups have gone on patrols through the streets of Portland to beat up non-binary folks and where they've stopped to beat up people for flicking them off when they drive through with a trump flag. I gotta ask, who is stupid enough to not entertain the thought this is just another escalation? Especially in the moment.
Thirdly they're actively telling people that, if they're followed, they'll shoot them. That's pretty low in the accountability standards.
> 3. These people are being arrested and released - doesn't sound like kidnapping to me. Sounds like law enforcement doing their job.
Kidnapping doesn't entail being kept indefinitely, it means being whisked off the street at the threat of violence into a stranger's vehicle.
Every other time in history, this has been bad, but this is the one outlier, right? That's pretty convenient.
The spying is supported by both major parties.
back in 2003, after Bush's President's Surveillance Program (NSA STELLARWIND) had been up and running for 2 years, hoovering up all domestic phone calls, emails and web traffic, the whole program was so secret that you could count on your hands who outside of NSA knew it was happening.
guess who was the 9th person outside of NSA and the WH who was "read into the program" and told about NSA STELLARWIND?
House Minority leader Nancy Pelosi, that's who.
guess who was the 14th person read in?
Deputy AG James Comey.
guess who was the 17th person read in?
DOJ Criminal Division chief Chris Wray, who is now FBI Director.
every single Democrat leader who has been in DC for their entire career LOVES mass domestic surveillance. they have known about it all along and they never once blew the whistle or tried to stop it or simply resign their jobs in silent protest. they all went along with it, "just doing my job."
voting new people into office isnt going to work.
You could at least log in with a different account before posting this.
How exactly does that happen when the two key entities have direct ties the the rest of the (surveillance) system? Those two enties control who gets to run, who is on the ballot. For example, look at Biden. He didn't win. The DNC put their thumb on the scale for him.
Any perception of being able to fight is an illusion, it's a ruse. As for the difference between East and West, that's true. That doesn't mean we're not in danger. Just because you can't see doesn't mean it's not there.
Do you have some examples of what he's done?
Cause the patriot act has been reconducted for 3 generations of presidents since 9/11, including obama, along with legalized mass surveillance, torture and deny of habeas corpus.
You may be drummed out as CEO of a major corp on trumped up charges (almost any high level exec could be found guilty of this):
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished...
You may be assassinated without trial or explanation anywhere in the world:
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-ki...
You may be kidnapped in any country and tortured at a black site in Syria:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
You may be arbitrarily pulled off the streets and detained by unidentified paramilitary forces:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/20/trump-...
It's extremely unlikely if you are white, non-muslim and do exactly as they ask, which may give you some comfort, but the US or other Western states do engage in the things you listed too.
I agree China is a much worse state at present than the US say, but I wouldn't be too comfortable about defying the US government on something they care about - they have murdered, coerced and ruined lives too in the recent past.
Starting illegal wars and overthrowing governments to put in puppets tends to be quite atrocious, but I guess if you benefit from it, no problems then.
It's very hard to compare countries, and there are certainly major problems with civil rights in the US, but I'd rather live in the US than in China right now.
True now, but that one poem will come up; First They Came (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...). If this keeps up, anyone who is more left / liberal leaning will be next, then the intellectuals, etc. It's happened before, pretty much exactly like this, it's just that the uniforms are different.
Why isn't the international community pulling on the emergency brakes? The UN was founded to prevent this exact shit. But the problem with the UN is that the perpetrators in this case all have a lot of influence there + veto powers, so it's basically powerless and useless.
Untrue. The UN was founded to prevent WWIII.
Being convinced that complete victory over their enemies is essential to defend life, liberty, independence and religious freedom, and to preserve human rights and justice in their own lands as well as in other lands, and that they are now engaged in a common struggle against savage and brutal forces seeking to subjugate the world...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_by_United_Nations
The Declaration does not name Nazism or Fascism specifically, but does describe the characteristics common to them and other authoritarian and aggressive forms of government.
It is true what you say, but officially it isn't permitted to spy on citizens through the western world. If that is scrapped, I would prefer honesty.
Can you? There are a few problems: firstly, the primaries are controlled by the parties, so you have a very limited menu to choose from when it comes to the actual elections. Secondly, the media is no longer independent. If you are not aligned with the status quo, you will get no exposure, or only very negative exposure. Finally, politicians consistently do the opposite of what they promise on such matters. Take Obama: a lot of people believed that he was the way to fight, that he was the "correct person". He promised to encourage whistle-blowing, and then he did the opposite. This is not a partisan observation, I pick this example because it is the most recent disappointment on such matters.
> But more importantly, I won't be spirited away to a black site by speaking ill about the president.
It is happening right now in Oregon.
> Nor can the government decide it doesn't want me as CEO of my company anymore.
Are you sure?
> Or prevent me from funding the opposition party.
Try funding a radical party and see what happens.
> There's an enormous difference between the West and totalitarian dystopia China.
I agree that there is, but it is scary to see that the difference is becoming smaller and most people seem ok with that. I worry that the future will not be a place worth living in.
In theory - the reality is very different. In both the US and UK you effectively have only 2 political parties, and have done since forever. In both the US and UK, the foreign policies, stance on mass surveillance, and support for the defence and security services, are the same.
Ask yourself when the last time was that the US/UK weren't cosied up Saudi Arabia, or the last time when the US wasn't bombing other countries to hell in the name of freedom or stoppi g the boogeyman de-jour (with allies like the UK in tow, of course). It's been the same since forever, and I don't see how our political system will ever offer a way out, a way to become better nations.
https://papersplease.org/wp/2013/09/29/how-the-nsa-obtains-a...
For all we know, all major hotel chains could just be forced to comply with secret injunctions from FISA, and it would still be totally legal, and totally cool.
At most there is Guantanamo and black sites abroad. And at least for Guantanamo the prisoners have a modicum of rights (see Boumedine, though I concede that the current scotus majority is limiting it as much as possible.)
[1]https://www.npr.org/2019/04/10/711850056/fake-documents-a-gr...
That's the point.
The NY Times and Washington Post routinely rail against our prison population and sentencing laws. Morally they're right, our sentences are too long. They never substantiate the premise that a large share of people in prison were wrongly convincted. In fact, to date, nobody has ever proven such an outlandish thing: because it's not true. The critics don't even attempt to prove that premise (at worst they'll point to a few select prominent cases). The problem with the US incarceration rate isn't that the US wrongly puts millions of people into prison, it's that the US puts people into prison with sentences that are too long.
That's basically the opposite of how it's meant to work.
"Shouldn't have been" is a value judgment; by my values, anyone in prison for a non-violent drug "offense" should not be there.
Just did a quick search, and for federal crimes, looks like the drug-related prison population is a whopping 46% of the total, at just under 70k inmates. Not sure what the violent vs. non-violent breakdown is, but even if the violent ones are 75% of those, 17k people () is still a lot. If we assume that the federal prison population is composed similarly to all the state prisons, that's 250k inmates for non-violent drug crimes.
Yes, I know I made some guesses and assumptions around those numbers, and if anyone has some better figures, I'd be happy to correct myself, but there's 250k people should not be in prison in the US, based on my values.
No, instead we have mass incarceration that is rife with corruption and mechanical to the point where prosecutors don't care if people are guilty, they just pile on whatever charges they can so they can pad their resume.
We literally have the world's largest prison population, millions of people in prison. We have private prisons and literally have had judges SELL KIDS to them.
At most? LMAO.
There are prisoners there that have never been even charged. They are being tortured, tapes and records are being destroyed. These people have no rights.
There is a huge difference between free Western democracies, and totalitarian China, just ask the people of Hong Kong.
It's also worth noting that if you execute a criminal after a non-fair trial and send his parents the bill for the bullet, it saves some space in the jails, plus has somewhat of a deterrent effect on crime.
The US puts people in prison for too long for violent crimes due to minimum sentencing laws. That's the reason the prison population is so high (although it has been rapidly declining for the past decade), not because it's randomly putting a million people into prison. The US gets an immense amount of flak for its mandatory minimum sentencing laws and rightfully so.
As one example, everyone knows the US has a high murder rate compared to other affluent nations for example (typically five or higher per 100k). If you have half a million murders every 30 years, it stands to reason you're going to have a lot of people in prison just from that one category and all of its intertwined consequences and related crime.
China has zero human rights, the government can do anything it wants to, to anyone, at any time, with or without a reason. That's not an exaggeration, it's how their system works de facto. They don't apologize for that and they flex that power routinely. Their government is all-powerful, it assumes all rights by default (anything you're allowed to have is a privilege they're granting to you, and they may revoke it at any time).
Referencing US incarceration numbers isn't enough. You have to demonstrate to a very high degree that the people in prison didn't commit the crimes in question, such as armed robbery, rape, murder, and so on. You need to show that a very large percentage of those people didn't commit the crimes they're in prison for (and no, it's not good enough to reference a few cases, you have to show that it applies to hundreds of thousands of instances). The majority of people in prison in the US are there for violent crimes.
then last year winter 2019, after the DOJ OIG reported that every FISA warrant submitted by FBI dating back to 2013 was riddled with multiple legal errors that should have invalidated those warrants, Rod Rosenstein once again was summoned to explain himself to Congress.
Rosenstein told Congress the reason he signed the 4 FISA warrants extending NSA/FBI/CIA surveillance of Carter Page was because he didnt read the warrants, he just trusted DOJ and FBI and blindly signed away.
that is how America ends up just like China. we dont even question the system.
What kind of warrant does the CCP have to get before they surveil someone? Since you think their system is equivalent, please explain why you think CCP warrants receive an equivalent amount of scrutiny.
I always found that dubious.
but then i did some research into Starwood hotels.
when Snowden ran to HK in May/June 2013, he stayed at the Mira hotel, paying with his personal credit card.
guess who owns Mira?
Mira is a Starwood hotel.
i guess that ROYALCONCIERGE program didnt work too well LOL.
i now no longer fear NSA and the FVEYs the same way i did back in 2013.
NSA/FVEYs are not 1984 meets Skynet. NSA is the Cyber DMV. govt clerks punching a clock and squabbling with each other over internal turf wars. they are morons, just with a bigger budget and an invisibility cloak of TOP SECRET.
NSA/FVEYs have already crippled themselves by their spectacular success. they hacked everyone, they exfiltrated all data on Earth, but what good is it? they couldnt even find Snowden in their own hotel spy program?
i bet more sand falls through the cracks in NSA's hands than any finite number of grains they do manage to catch. there simply is no way to scale putting a human eyeball on every piece of SIGINT. the more SIGINT you collect, the more blind you become.
these days i am NSA's #1 cheerleader. i fervently hope they intercept and wiretap and collect everything. because one day poetic justice will knock NSA on their asses and blindside their hubris and they will never see it coming.
Being able to hack into systems to hunt down individuals of interest to the state, is something totally different than everyone, everywhere, at all times surveyed, by everyone, even their neighbours, and then putting people in 'internment camps' because of their ethnicity.
This is all tricky stuff, it all needs context.
Zero difference ? Except that you don't have a totalitarian power on top for which laws are meaningless pieces of paper. Look at HK and ask them under which regime they would prefer to live in.
And if you ask minorities that go to jail for years for non-violent crime, or marijuana possession they would likely say something else.
Your own source makes it clear that this system works/worked by intercepting emails.
> "then GCHQ sends teams ahead of time to [...] assassinate them"
Unless Snowden buried the lede quite spectacularly, I think this is not true.
Do you have a primary source for what you're alluding to?
I wouldn't argue that we should ignore or accept constant surveillance in our daily lives, but I would argue that I'd rather not have my travel rights revoked for expressing opinions against the state.
I'm not saying the US is as bad as China, but I roll my eyes when people talk about China forcing its companies to serve the interests of the state. Our government does it all the time and it doesn't require a warrant.
The US has a court system that reviews National Security Letters, and can accept challenges to them, and while that court is secret, it's still bound by rules that are established by elected congressional officials. ...and perhaps most importantly, they are still somewhat rare.
Chinese companies on the other hand are required to cooperate on all requests, even international subsidiaries of any Chinese companies. No "letters" or court orders - you either do it or the CEO goes to jail, no trial, no judicial review.
It might seem like the results are similar, but having judicial and congressional oversight makes a world of difference in tempering how/when it can be used and, more importantly, rolling it back when it's no longer necessary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter#Doe_v...
It's a night and day comparison.
most of these observations are very valid
just because you coincidentally respect the due process that reaches a result, doesn’t mean that it is a functionally different or better. its only indoctrination and pure happenstance to whatever you were exposed to first.
Is there a public count of how many challenges vs how many were rejected?
[1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/requiring-judicial-rev...
I agree that it is a night and day comparison, the fact that the legality of this process is even argued in the courts is evidence of that, but national security letters are today still deeply problematic.
So stripping whataboutism, your argument is basically reducted to "the FBI accesses a source of info but that isn't bad because of oversight".
Citation needed.
While I suspect you are right, I've never seen an example of one and we don't have any proof that this is how they are used in practice. The same could have been said about FISA warrants, but both civil libertarians and Trump allies have been critical in how FISA warrants have been used in practice despite the way they were described as few and targeted by those "watchers" who were "watching themselves".
Here's most of one, served to Microsoft in 2014 & released in 2017
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/CMSFiles/NationalSecurity--J...
[1] https://www.aclu.org/other/testimony-aclu-client-and-nationa...
I don't think that main US adversaries ever shied away from much more direct means to infiltrate the US government.
I think that, to keep government accountable, these sealed writs should have a clear date when they will be unsealed, and although it seems this one was eventually unsealed I don't see such a date. But I don't find the specificity or nature of this particular court order problematic.
Certainly national security letters have been shown to have concerning issues both in specificity and in transparency, but again, none of the orders referenced in the article seem to be national security letters. (EFF has more details on their concerns with NSLs at [2].)
[1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6989724-All-Writs-Ac...
[2] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/requiring-judicial-rev...