Hacker News Reader

Comment by sudosysgen | Hacker News Reader

This is an absolutely amazing innovation, but bike thieves have already progressed to using powder-actuated pistons in order to break the internal mechanism of a lock. Much faster and easier than cutting anything.

View on HN

Not to mention pre-cutting bike racks themselves (and handrails, etc. that people lock their bikes to), and then putting some duct tape or something over the cut. When they get ready to take your bike they don't have to cut a thing. Just lift up the cut section, slip your chain/lock through the gap, and go.

That's brilliant. It reminds me of people who have written about how disappointing magic tricks generally are when they're revealed, because you think "I could have thought of that" but you probably couldn't.

Even without a pre-cut rack, its pretty common that whatever you've locked up to (sign post, bike rack, parking meter, handrail, etc) is a lower grade of steel than the ultra-hard stuff on the shackle of a good bike lock or chain anyways. No need to pre-cut that cheap galvanized steel sign post if you don't want to, a thief would have no problem getting through it quickly if something attractive was locked up.

I'll use about $100 worth of u-locks to lock up my not-super-visually-impressive $250 spare parts city errand bike as long as overnight (and this is in NYC).

But I think the strike point where spending more on heavier/fancier locks to secure a more valuable bike just stops making sense is right about at the price point I'm already at, most nicer bikes are simply too nice to leave unattended on city streets in the US or anywhere else where bike theft is a concern. Someone with a good set of pocket tools could rip $500 worth of parts off a well-locked frameset and wheels in 20 mins without making any noise... and I don't think a non-cuttable material helps that scenario, even if it does make very secure locks attainability light.

(Could be a really big deal for bike touring folks though, who often ride out with a cheap cable lock at best because anything better is too heavy to carry for days/weeks)

> its pretty common that whatever you've locked up to (sign post, bike rack, parking meter, handrail, etc) is a lower grade of steel than the ultra-hard stuff on the shackle

Way back in highschool this always used to baffle me. You'd get kids spending $50+ on super fancy locks for their lockers, but all these locks equally were fastened to the locker with a flimsy little hasp that you could cut with a pair of tin snips, assuming you didn't just bend back the door of the locker itself.

Often, and notably in the case of school lockers, there is a huge difference in bypassing a lock using a method that leaves traces of your passage and using a method that renders your infraction undetectable - or at least undetected.

In any major city really the solution is to never lock anything up in public that is worth more than $400 or so. I have two road bikes, the insurance replacement value of each would probably be $3000, and I wouldn't even dream of buying a lock. I literally don't even know where my lock is. The last time I saw a lock was when I put it in a box of stuff on a shelf in my garage 10+ years ago.

If you have a nice road bike with very clean tires people generally will not mind you bringing it into places with you consistently.

No matter how good your lock is, if somebody REALLY wants the bike (for the value of its components) they'll just saw the frame in half.

We definitely mind, we're just too polite to tell you. Knowing your friend spends thousands (plural) on their bike makes you feel bad about not wanting their "clean" tires, which definitely didn't roll through dog turds and cat pee on the way there, on your floors.

To clarify I did not mean taking a bike into peoples' houses, but commercial establishments that already see a high volume of foot traffic. The tread pattern and grip on any shoes collects far more feces and other dirt from sidewalks than a smooth treadless 700x23 tire.

On the plus side, multi-thousand-dollar bikes can be lifted with one hand and slung over your shoulder if you're a courteous rider.

Not most e-bikes. They're heavier than normal bikes. I just use multiple heavy-duty locks, through the frame and both wheels.

Yeah an ebike can be considerably more heavy. What I had in mind for my description was something like a full carbon road frame and fork, Shimano 105 current generation components or the sram equivalent, and a good quality lightweight wheelset.

yeah I definitely don't ride my bike through dog turds, and if I did you'd find evidence on my shoes before my tires (from which it would have already been rubbed off)

Not sure I follow, I take it by implication you have renter's or homeowner's insurance, in which case your replacement cost is the deductible - and $400 is a common deductible. Now, getting a bike set up the way you had yours is a pain, granted. I think it's pretty unlikely that even desperate thieves would saw through your frame, they want to be able to resell as much of the bike as they can, and the frame is a fairly valuable component...

I've managed to keep my bike locked up outside OVERNIGHT in San Francisco (Washington & Polk St.) for a year now. How I did it? The short version: one very good lock (Viro Euromonolith + Peewag security chain, $175), a second good lock (kryptonite, $90), and an okay lock (Abus, to keep them from stealing the basket, $60).

I've also had 3 bikes stolen, the rear wheel stolen, the basket stolen, the front brake stolen, the seat stolen, but now with all the locks there is much less stealing.

If I may ask, what is the specification/purchase value of the bike? Is it cheap enough to not look like a juicy target?

The bike was around $700-$800 new (I bought it used for $500). It's a Public bike, and their closest current model is the PUBLIC M7i, which retails for $799.

It's a target, but it's certainly not a "juicy" target like, say, a $3k mountain bike.

The bike thieves continue to steal the small stuff, notably the rubber attachments which hold my bike lights, but haven't been able to steal the big stuff (frame, wheels, basket, seat) in a long time.

One of the strangest things that was stolen is the yellow electrician's tape I used to "dog" my seat with—they painstakingly peeled off the tape, but left the seat.

Geez, they stole your front brake? What the hell are they going to do with it?

What is the cost of it? A few bucks? I can’t even be bothered to sell my used crap on eBay.

A stolen front v brake / rim brake? They're going to trade it along with a few other choice bike parts they've collected for $15 worth of meth, crack or synthetic opiates.

I hope this thread results in an FP post about this, because I am super curious now and there's only tidbits here ("engine pistons?" "what's a ramset?").

How does that work?

Essentially, the powder actuated piston fires a blank round and uses the pressure in order to propel a mass, that hits the lock and, assuming that the lock is restrained in the opposite direction, creates an immense force that destroys the internals of the lock and forces it open, all in less than a second.

Is this sort of like the weapon the guy in No Country For Old Men was using?

I don't remember the movie well enough, but it might have been a captive bolt gun (typically used for slaughtering livestock)?

That's a captive bolt gun. It's used to kill cattle for slaughter.

Doesn't that use compressed air?

The one shown in that movie uses compressed air. Some other sorts use powder charges, just like a powder actuated nailgun.

Pneumatic

https://youtu.be/Wimo09WV-rY?t=237

Maybe in YouTube videos but I have not heard of people using Ramsets to steal bike in real life. Firing a gun is a good way to get people call the cops.

Edit: I am wrong!

The new Ramset guns are surprisingly quiet. Certainly, the police won't be called, and there's not much of a risk to the thief.

This is because unlike a gun, there is no need for the gases to release to the outside openly. Therefore, there is much, much less noise, and it doesn't sound like a gun at all.

I wonder if the battery-powered propellant-free Hilti fastener shooter would work, those things are extremely quiet!

It's my understanding that the actual propulsion of a nail is no more powerful than a powder actuated tool, which use cartridges similar in power to the very small .22LR

Do you have lots of experience looking at reports of stolen bikes? I have heard exactly the opposite in my major metro area. My sources are law enforcement and bike clubs.

Nobody will stop you in San Francisco.

Locks should have a layer of explosive material inside, so firing the powder-actuated tool (PAT) may ignite the explosives and destroy the PAT itself, and it would help too by making some very strong noise so people may hear something is going on.

Are you going to make that explosive sensitive to shocks? Otherwise, how is it going to ignite? And if you would do so, you realize how dangerous that is, right?

I’m sure the legal department of the lock manufacturer would recommend against that..

Booby traps are illegal.

You can do whatever you want with your bike but I sure am not carrying something designed to be activated by a strong jolt on my bike when I bike through decaying city streets full of potholes and bumps and other fun stuff like that.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com